Positive/Negative Interpretations (split from 'Red Flag' relationship warning cards)

headincloud

Top 3 things she likes about me:
-Knight of Swords - I have a tendency to just charge into things and get them done instead of waiting around.
-5 cups - Maybe that I realize my mistakes when I make them...
-2 pentacles - I have been juggling her with my career right now, maybe she finds it attractive that I have a couple different things going on.

Here's the actual spread, I'm not claiming to be right just using it as an example. Under the method a lot of readers seem to use they'd approach it with a list like you've proposed and they go about looking for a positive interpretation for each card because that is what the spread seems to suggest, 3 positive qualities and that to me is the first incorrect assumption, we failed to understand the question properly in the first instance. By overlaying it with positive meanings we've completely missed what the cards are actually saying and have no chance of understanding it. There's no need to perceive the card in a prescribed positive or negative light in line with our own limited perception of the question, if 5C comes up we don't need to put a positive twist on it, it is what it is, we read what we've got. Just because it's difficult to understand we can't twist it to suit ourselves.

My interpretation; actually I'll use truly teach me tarot keep it simple and save time.

Knight of Swords - Sudden Arrivals/Departures, Blunt, Direct, Honest, Lawful, Assertive, Communicative, Chatty, Talkative, Public Speaking, Vocal, Literal, Cool, Swift, Action, Speed, Rush, Hasty, Rebellious, Going against The Flow, Problem Solver, Throwing yourself into the Heart of an Issue or Situation, Plans in Action, Strategies, Quick Thinking, Fast-Paced, Forward Thinking, Ahead of The Rest, Making a Get Away, Getting Out Quick, Single-Minded, Bloody-Minded, Fanatical, Obsessive, Perfectionist, Critical, Focused, Authoritative, Incisive, Decisive, Scientist, Educated, Knowledgeable, Expert, Ambitious, Risk Taker, Courageous, Intelligent, Intellectual, Debater, Analytical, Logical, Ideas, Clever, Sharp, Witty, Tension, Anger, Waging War, Arguments, Battle, Dispute, Duel, Attack/Defence, Law Officials, , Living by One’s Wits, Flying by the Seat of Your Pants, Military, Soldier, War, Heroic Action, Warrior, Champion, Crusade, Rabble Rouser, Dashing, Daring,

5 cups - Impermanence, Unhappy Change, Loss, Grief, Trauma, Bereft, Despair, Mourning, Sadness, Deep Sorrow, Heart Broken, Inconsolable, Broken Spirit, Unstable, Painful Time, Remorse, Regret, Shame, Guilt, Self-Blame, Emotional Baggage, Wallowing, Withdrawn, Focusing on Past, Focusing on Loss, Defeat, Deflated, Separation, Divorce, Goodbyes, Abandonment, Losing Out, Loneliness, Isolation, Alienation, Exile, Readjustment, All not Lost, Support, Deep Anger, Deep Disappointment, Strong Emotions.

2 pentacles - Material Decisions, Financial Decisions, Juggling Finances, Cash-Flow, Juggling Life, Ups and Downs, Kept on Your Toes, Money Coming and Going, Money Transfers, Money Doubling, Financial Stress, Mood fluctuations, Paperwork, Stock Market, Profit and Loss, Writing, Publishing, Journalism, Circulation.

We can get a feel for the spread just by reading the key words and the overall picture looks pretty difficult, there's mood fluctuations, conflict, difficult emotions and stress as he tries to juggle his multiple obligations, he may be feeling defeated and deflated by the arguments which through my eyes she seems to be enjoying, and I say that because these cards are things she likes, but I could be wrong of course. If we study the knight S in depth we find that one aspect of him (highlighted by the difficulty in the other cards) is that he's constantly on the go, hasn't got time to stop and think and feels harassed, look at the tension in the spread, hence my interpretation of she's running him ragged. I took the whole spread into account including dislikes before drawing my conclusion.

If for example the knight swords had turned up 8W I wouldn't have pulled the same interpretation out of the rote meanings, here we see a very determined knight who is focused, likely thrives on and is driven by stress in moderation, he'll likely achieve a great deal under the influence.

Similarly a 'red flag' position imho would not need to be read through the list you proposed, I personally wouldn't change it up I'd read what I got according to traditional meanings of the cards and the dynamics between them.

I could be wrong but it seems possible you're depending on the question to dictate which aspects you pull from the card where I tend to look to the card itself to answer the question and the aspects I pull from it are dictated by surrounding cards. What if the question is not valid, or the answer seems out of context. If we ask for the future of a relationship and there isn't one the cards might say, Knight swords (swift departure) and ace of cups (away from the relationship) which to me reads no future, in this example the male had already left the relationship and clearly wasn't planning on returning. We cannot simply apply the ace of cups to a future that doesn't exist because that's the question we posed. Perhaps some are looking to questions rather than reversals to throw light into the spread but I don't want an argument about whether we should use reversals or not, each to their own this is just my way and I'm not claiming it's superior or the only way.
 

obeygravity

Truth be told, I'm trying to follow what you're saying headinthecloud and it seems like everyone is, overall, in agreement, so I'm not entirely sure where the point of contention is. The point of the original thread regarding Red Flags and providing a list in which each card could potentially be seen as a red flag depending on the context of the reading isn't actively re-writing the card's definition so much as putting an aspect of the card that COULD be seen in a not so positive light. I don't think anyone has stated outright that the question being posed will dictate the cards but rather the other way around.

Personally I think it's good for people to take the time to look at the different ways a card can express itself because it allows the reader to better train themselves in seeing potentially negative messages despite a well intended question being asked. At this point it almost seems to be a discussion regarding semantics regarding cards which is making a lot of this harder to follow.

The use of positions in readings is often just a good way to help people orient themselves as well in order to get a quick message across regarding a specific aspect to a situation. I don't think positions are set up to direct a specific outcome so much as to add both clarity and a layered perspective to the matter at hand. Anyone who does a spread with positions who doesn't also take the time to look at the cards as a whole is often times someone who's missing a much much much larger message.
 

headincloud

The construct of the thread is "red flags". As there are 78 cards in the standard deck, any of those cards could appear in that position. As readers, we often get positive cards in negative positions and vice versa. It's up to us to be able to interpret those cards. No one has said that the Sun, for example, is always a red flag in a relationship. But if the position is looking at red flags, then the Sun needs to be read within that framework.

I can't say I'm in agreement with this or with your argument, doesn't seem complicated.

Truth be told, I'm trying to follow what you're saying headinthecloud and it seems like everyone is, overall, in agreement, so I'm not entirely sure where the point of contention is. The point of the original thread regarding Red Flags and providing a list in which each card could potentially be seen as a red flag depending on the context of the reading isn't actively re-writing the card's definition so much as putting an aspect of the card that COULD be seen in a not so positive light. I don't think anyone has stated outright that the question being posed will dictate the cards but rather the other way around..
 

rwcarter

I can't say I'm in agreement with this or with your argument, doesn't seem complicated.
So you can disagree with how others read, but no one is allowed to disagree with how you read?
 

headincloud

So you can disagree with how others read, but no one is allowed to disagree with how you read?

How did you come to that conclusion, there's no-one on the thread who agrees with me. If you mean due to the fact I haven't changed my position in the face of opposition well I'm not likely to no more than you are tbh. I've put my point across as clearly as possible what's the fuss about, am I not allowed to disagree with you?
 

Grizabella

I think the best thing to do here is to agree to disagree about this. :) It's fine if headincloud prefers to read her (or his?) way but that doesn't negate the way anyone else here reads.

Sometimes we've had the issue of Tarot certification come up here and the result of that is usually to find that it isn't possible to certify whether someone is competent to read the cards by passing some sort of test. I think this thread is sort of along the same lines. It's not possible to do a one-size-fits-all test to determine that. There are so many factors that come into consideration. For instance, some people just use the cards by intuition alone and not learning the traditional meanings, but they're excellent readers nevertheless. There are others who, like Barleywine for one, use almost a mathematical consideration of the cards and their message. Then there are those who use the cards but are more on the psychic order who may know and sometimes use "book meanings" but their readings are based quite a bit on psychic information.

Whatever way any of us reads is okay if that's how it works for us. We may not understand how somebody else comes to the message they see in the cards, but there's room for us all here. The end result is what matters.

Headincloud, I've seen your input on readings here and I think you do a very good job of interpreting the cards in the way that works for you. Nobody can deny that, I'm sure, but you need to also accept that we're not all the same. The proof is in the pudding, so to speak.

I sometimes look at Barleywine's way of reading the cards with great admiration, but when I read his way of describing how he comes the the conclusions he makes, I often can't make heads nor tales of it. He's an excellent reader, but I have what I call "dumb spots" and I haven't managed to absorb the Tarot information in the technical way he's able to.

If you were to ask me how I arrive at the readings I do, I honestly can't tell you in detail. I just do what works for me and am happy to allow others to do what works for them, even if I can't relate that much to the details. :)
 

spookyboo22

So essentially then every single card is a potential red flag in a relationship, I don't get it. How could there be other positive cards in the mix if they've all been assigned as a red flag. And why pin those meanings on those cards when there are already cards assigned to those meanings.[/QUOT

If someone is a big baby then why wouldn't the sun appear in the red flag position?
If being a big baby is the answer to the question, what other cards are assigned to this answer?
 

Enlightenment23

I just want to point out that I think Rodney's Red Flag warning cards are legendary. :) It's been incredibly helpful for me for sure and, more than anything, a great source of entertainment!

I haven't perused through this whole debate, but I am sure Rodney's thread was just a light-hearted post of 78 suggestions - we can all agree that there are infinite significations of each card. No definition is set in stone.

As far as I'm concerned, using positional readings isn't "forcing" anything. If there truly is nothing to worry about when it comes to red flags in a potential relationship, tarot has no problems telling us to calm down and take a chill pill! I usually get the 9 of Swords or the 10 of Swords as "stop worrying about it! Nothing to be concerned about here, sheesh!" :laugh:

But hey! To each their own :)
 

Maru

I think the best thing to do here is to agree to disagree about this. It's fine if headincloud prefers to read her (or his?) way but that doesn't negate the way anyone else here reads.

Sometimes we've had the issue of Tarot certification come up here and the result of that is usually to find that it isn't possible to certify whether someone is competent to read the cards by passing some sort of test. I think this thread is sort of along the same lines. It's not possible to do a one-size-fits-all test to determine that. There are so many factors that come into consideration. For instance, some people just use the cards by intuition alone and not learning the traditional meanings, but they're excellent readers nevertheless. There are others who, like Barleywine for one, use almost a mathematical consideration of the cards and their message. Then there are those who use the cards but are more on the psychic order who may know and sometimes use "book meanings" but their readings are based quite a bit on psychic information.

Exactly. Tarot cards at the end of the day are only just a tool. They're not the be-all end-all and "the bizness". It's the readers who make them work at the end of the day. One way may work for one reader. Another way may work entirely differently for another reader and everybody is different in their choice of /how/ best to work the cards. For some, rules may help to keep certain things in check (like personal bias)... for others, rules need only apply to a point, then it's time to break some and let the magic happen it's own... the tools adapt (surprisingly well) in the end

I'm not sure where I sit in the above category as I don't really explain my process often. Though I think learned backwards compared to the "classic" method(s). Before cards, I did readings without them as I've had a few mentors and other guides over the years. When I first tried them, I tried to match them with meanings and my mind was like "no, this isn't it"... I didn't read for a few years as my cards were burnt by the church... long story. Anyway, when I got a new deck, I just pulled them for meditation when I would do energy work only to assist my usual reading method. After that, it worked perfectly when I had full confidence. When I was not confident, my cards spit out BS.. That is where my study started and I started to draw a lot of my own connections and channeled meanings. The wonderful part of Tarot---and really symbols, colors, line-weight, composition, everything I love about my job (design)--it is such a universal language. Just about anyone can pick it up and get some sort of impression... if they just become passive to the process. (Think art therapy, music therapy or some kind of art interpretation course...)

Definitions didn't work for me, because I don't see cards as strict images. I felt the tool should adapt to my current intuition, not vice-versa. That is when I picked up that reversals worked differently (reversals for me mean "things I need to channel more info on--i.e. LOOK AT THIS)... I see them as placeholders for energies more than meanings in the end. The cards are just assistive to the process, but they're a passive participant... I guess for that reason, they never "clicked" because I held stubborn to my other process... I also noticed I picked up the habit of "tapping" energies with cards when dealing... I would set card down on desk while being "turned off" and move them into position.. (which means I don't follow the ordered numbers on the spread... *GASP*)... it has worked for two decades though--no problem :thumbsup: (and something when I try to not do, makes my arm hurt...)

Anyway, I think that some people--whether they're aware of their own ability to read or not, they maybe start early being able to connect these dots on their own... the cards are just kinda there after the fact to help facilitate the process in a less arbitrary manner... I used to do much better with reading off the cuff (without oracles/tools), but they're so handy to have when you need something physical to put in front of you to meditate on or "validate" your more psychic sense. I call this "reading diagnostically". That's the reason I use divination anyway... to confirm... the pictures give me interesting cues to go off and my cards can be pretty qiurky in terms of humor.. I don't try to take everything so seriously when reading, so for me, they not only relax me with the querent but with myself in self-readings... they are therapeutic to use. I'm sure it helps some with channeling messages correctly (which I use reversals for areas to focus in). They're a wonderful tool for self-empowerment in an intuitive sense which is more important... when the cards are all reversed though, then I know Tarot is having a go at me. :joke: (and these are fun to show my husband who rolls his eyes)

Speaking of my husband, he sometimes gets frustrated when he sees people frustrate themselves over definitions. He'll read with cards if I ask, but in his mind, they're not necessary because in the end it's just card stock and ink... if you put too much into them, you miss the big picture (irony considering they're little pictures)...

If you can affirm or learn something you needed to see that breaks the ice, then readings have served their purpose... if you're using them as "yes you're right, OK?" votives, then you're probably not maxing out the potential of your readings... in which case welcome to AT I hear the coffee is always on ... if you can't however, life still goes on and they're just cards at the end of the day... you're still here and it's not over... there are other ways to find your 'answer'... I think this is when people kinda go off the beaten path... looking for cards to be the answer to everything and all that stirs them... they don't experiment and don't take breaks... recipe for disaster because you're restricting the person most necessary for divination... you... the cards don't get themselves out of the box in the morning and say "It's time to read me"... that's the reader... that's not really a Tarot issue anyway, more along the lines of something personal, but because people become so desperate to assert their own meanings, it can stifle their inner voice (for whatever reason). That can make some people disillusioned as to why others can read with broke ass rules and get stellar results (lol) while having just learned about quints after picking up the major arcana... but I don't think that most people do this intentionally, to read without rules or to read incorrectly... they just find what works for them to break through and that is their entry point and hopefully they make other break throughs to reaffirm what they've learned...

Some of us soul search (with or without cards), and sometimes it's subconscious--sometimes it's conscious... a lot of this compels us to experiment and do some funky math with our cards... (woo quints)... but that's more of an internal process than a Tarot thing and only something as individuals we can be aware of 100% of them... though I think at the end of the day, we all relate, because we've seen how Tarot cards are certainly helpful when added to the reading process... they're not the only way to complete this process. There are people who read tea leaves and other things.. It's like choosing a crayon over a marker or a pen or a block of charcoal... you can do and complete this process however you like... maybe just use your imagination for a little while and save $$$ (lol) from unnecessary Tarot purchases... but there's many ways to do this research. Cards are certainly not requisite... intuition can come in and out without them... answers coem and go in other ways as well (life's happy accidents)... I guess the important thing is that you know what method best works for you and what is helpful in your current life and reading practices... everything else is preference at the end of it.
 

headincloud

As far as I'm concerned, using positional readings isn't "forcing" anything. If there truly is nothing to worry about when it comes to red flags in a potential relationship, tarot has no problems telling us to calm down and take a chill pill! I usually get the 9 of Swords or the 10 of Swords as "stop worrying about it! Nothing to be concerned about here, sheesh!" :laugh:

But hey! To each their own :)

Hi enlightenment I agree no definition is set in stone and I don't think positional readings in a spread cause a problem if the cards are read in light of the question(s) proposed but to me it seems if you had a position for red flag in the spread and the tarot wanted to say 'calm down and take a chill pill, question invalid' it wouldn't be able to because under the prescription of red flags in the list 9S - worry wart, hypochondriac
10S - backstabber. By applying these meanings we've forced a negative interpretation into the spread because we've changed the answer up in light of the question. By using this method we've silenced all other more probable answers. To me we can't assume an answer is negative because the question is framed in a negative light any more than we can assume a positive answer because we've asked for 'positives' in a situation, what if the positive in the situation turns out to be a negative or vice versa. Are you able to see this or am I simply not getting this across very well?

It's not nitpicking it's fundamentals.