Grand Cross?

Marcia959

Is it a Grand Cross if the 4th point of the cross is the North Node? Or "just" a T-square?

Sun - Aries
Uranus - Cancer conjunct South Node
Neptune - Libra
North Node - Capricorn
 

dadsnook2000

Thank you so much ???

Sintruli, aren't you even curious about what the T-Square means and how you might think about managing it? Dave
 

Marcia959

Well, I'd like to know.
 

margi

Not to nose in your post, but can any one tell me if this is a grand cross?

Planetary positionsplanet sign degree motion
Sun Pisces 3°14'08 in house 3 direct
Moon Sagittarius 0°36'03 in house 1 direct
Mercury Aquarius 7°33'57 in house 3 direct
Venus Capricorn 19°58'58 in house 2 direct
Mars Leo 18°57'25 in house 9 retrograde
Jupiter Sagittarius 13°11'51 in house 1 direct
Saturn Pisces 13°34'35 in house 4 direct
Uranus Capricorn 28°27'32 in house 2 direct
Neptune Capricorn 24°27'45 in house 2 direct
Pluto Sagittarius 0°34'36 in house 1 direct
True Node Scorpio 7°50'00 in house 12 direct

House positions (Placidus)Ascendant Scorpio 27°48'33
2nd House Sagittarius 28°56'36
3rd House Aquarius 5°19'42
Imum Coeli Pisces 11°59'10
5th House Aries 12°57'26
6th House Taurus 7°30'21
Descendant Taurus 27°48'33
8th House Gemini 28°56'36
9th House Leo 5°19'42
Medium Coeli Virgo 11°59'10
11th House Libra 12°57'26
12th House Scorpio 7°30'21

Major aspects
Sun Square Moon 2°38
Sun Square Pluto 2°40
Sun Square Ascendant 5°26
Moon Sextile Mercury 6°58
Moon Sextile Uranus 2°09
Moon Sextile Neptune 6°08
Moon Conjunction Pluto 0°01
Moon Conjunction Ascendant 2°47
Mercury Sextile Jupiter 5°38
Venus Quincunx Mars 1°02
Venus Conjunction Neptune 4°29
Mars Trine Jupiter 5°46
Jupiter Square Saturn 0°23
Uranus Conjunction Neptune 4°00
Uranus Sextile Pluto 2°07
Uranus Sextile Ascendant 0°39
Neptune Sextile Ascendant 3°21
Pluto Conjunction Ascendant 2°46
Numbers indicate orb (deviation from the exact aspect angle).

There seem to be alot of squares here....

Thanks,
~margi
 

Minderwiz

Margi,

A grand cross looks like a big square in your chart, the corners of which are 4 planets. A square has a pair of opposite corners - so you need to have two of the 4 planets in opposition. Looking at your aspect list, there are no oppositions and therefore no grand cross.

Marcia,

Can the north node be a corner? Now somewhere there will be an Astrologer who says 'Yes' but the standard answer is 'No' because the nodes are points not planets. Indeed if we allowed the north node to be one corner, we have to allow the south node to be the opposite corner. That could leave us with a grand cross with only two planets which were in opposition and squared a node.

Interestingly, nodes do have exaltations and therefore a 'planetary' characteristic which no other points have. But they are not planets and therefore do not cast aspects.
 

Marcia959

Whew "only" a t-square to deal with then. So on to the "how to deal with it"? T-square is 2nd, 5th, 8th houses. BTW, that lunar eclipse was fabulous! Got cool photos.
 

Minderwiz

That's great. It wasn't visible from here - it occured in full daylight.

I'll leave Dave, or someone else to deal with T squares, but the argument is that they connect the affairs of the three houses - involved and indeed some would say that they're 'worse' than a grand cross because the T square has no balance, due to the 'missing' corner.

Strangely, much that you will read deals with the aspect pattern as such, rather than the planets that compose it. It seems to me that a T square of Moon, Venus and Jupiter is very different from a T square with Saturn, Mars and the Sun (and I'm ignoring their essential dignities there for simplicity), wherever it's located. A T square involving one or more of the outer planets is also very different. Planets matter far more than houses or signs.
 

Marcia959

So the sudden flash *Uranus* of the unknown *Neptune* is where I'm at *Sun*? Or something like that...!
 

dadsnook2000

T-Squares; aspects or planets

It is an interesting point as to whether one's interpretation should focus more on the aspect pattern or the planets involved. As Minderwiz noted, Planets are our focus in astrology --- everything else is secondary, or even further down the scale of importance.

One way for early studies students to orient their exploration of astrology is to acquire a copy of Ebertin's "The Combination of Stellar Influences." This is the most popular astrological book sold in terms of numbers of copies and as a constant reference source -- even for professional and capable astrologers. "CoSI" as it is called, deal with midpoint structures, patterns that involve three planets, one of which is at the midpoint of the distance in arc between the other two planets. The actual arc-distance, as measured by zodiac position and degrees, is not important --- only that a third planet is midway between any two other planets.

WHY IS THIS IMPORTANT TO YOU?
1) Only the nature of the planets are involved in the interpretation.
2) More research and usage has gone into this system than any other system of astrological practice.
3) The book interpretations are often "freakishly accurate" without having to modify them for the context of the subjects life and chart.
4) You can interpret a chart without using signs and houses and get a valid picture of the person involved.
5) It is probably the easiest system to use. Although I would not suggest that you ignore or the other approaches to astrology.

****

So, lets look at Sintruli's T-Square pattern just using the planets involved and see what CoSI says. Saturn opposes Neptune, both square Sun & Mars.

We will look at Sun = Saturn/Neptune first. "Physical reaction or illness as a consequence of emotional suffering or upsets, lack of vitality, a sensitive physique, a propensity to illness, disease."

Now, Mars = Saturn/Neptune. "Lack of energy, lack of creative energy. Weak procreative powers. Inactivity through emotional depression or sickness."

With the above interpretations on the table, so to speak, we now have to place them into the context of Sintruli's life, something we don't know of. So, we will make some assumptions from the natal chart, that being the best that we have to work with.

** Sun & Mars is at the Descendant, suggesting a social orientation that is a very important factor in your life. The Leo influence amplifies your push to both establish relationships as well as to make them work and to serve others in a supportive manner.

** Moon is late in the first house, in Pisces, giving you a dramatic flair for seeking interaction with others. With Moon at the closing "inconjunct" with Sun, it suggests that you are learning how to make personal adjustments in working or interacting with others. This, for me, points to some form of "professionalism" in terms of how/why you need to better interact with others.

** One other point to note. If I use the MC as the center of a midpoint picture with the Ascendant, we find a new point at 29 Virgo which is close to the Mercury/Pluto conjunction. Mercury-Pluto suggests one who is always thinking, can be sharply critical and is influential upon others. This again points to a "professionalism" in terms of work or in terms of life goals.

We can now place the Sun-Mars conjunction into a "context" relative to the 3rd-9th house Saturn opposite Neptune pattern --- this pattern, which I share with you, points to one who can bridge dreams to reality, who can find a way to make something come true, or who can take something material in its nature and cast it as part of a greater vision.

We are looking here at the "potential" for you to be a guide, a counselor, or a leader of some sort in working with others to find their dreams or to be part of your dreams. Whether you do this through theater-drama types of work, or through creative art, or in building dreams for others to fit into is something that you will have to comment upon.

On the other hand, the failure to help, to lead, to support or influence others can be devastating, resulting in depression, a pulling back of your efforts, a feeling of inadequacy.

The T-Square aspect pattern, in itself, is a tension factor, a driver to accomplish something. It's focus is on the active Sun-Mars pattern. A lack of focus or mis-direction, in my opinion, lies in the Aquarian tendancy to see to broad a picture, to reach out to too many, to distance yourself from the immediacy of the problem that should always be seen as being more personal and intimate. The one-on-one approach is probably much better, leaving you to lead or help many others by individual example than by "group" applicatins. These are just the views of a "modern" astrologer. You have to place them into a personal context which is something that I don't have for you. Perhaps you will feel comfortable enough to reshape these comments so that they apply to your actual personal life. Hope this helps. Dave
 

Sintruli

T-Squares; aspects or planets

Your analysis is right. Due to unfulfilled dreams and expectations, crappy dead end jobs, a dysfunctional family, and deliberate malicious acts by others I have become withdrawn. I work, I come home, I work, I come home. I recognize the cynicism and criticism flowing through me.

This is no way to live.

I swear I'm cursed. Even my own family and friends make jokes about it. If it weren't so funny it would be tragic. I have tried so many different things to turn my life around but it all comes to naught. It just gets worse.

Thanks for your insight, I appreciate it.