Four of Swords -- why not death?

Alex

I just couldn't read the whole thread but the suggestion of Death comes from the pictures in the H-W clones more than on the suite and number association.

The Mythic deck shows a person meditating, preparing for the battle ahead, a meaning akin to the one Holmes described.

Alex.
 

Thirteen

meatbox666 said:
In regards to a burial, someone looking at the coffin, would not the five of swords be present also with the four of swords to indicate that a death occured?
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I'm with you on all but the 5/Swords. Why the 5/Swords? I'm not disagreeing, I'm just not sure I understand. 5/Swords (traditional RW) is a man walking away after losing a fight--So I understand the HIV idea (he lost the fight). But how does that connection work with the burial? Unless you're saying that we're always fighting just to stay alive?

Oh, and you can quote by clicking on the little "quote" button that's down there beside the "edit" button.
 

Thirteen

Alex said:
I just couldn't read the whole thread but the suggestion of Death comes from the pictures in the H-W clones more than on the suite and number association.

The Mythic deck shows a person meditating, preparing for the battle ahead, a meaning akin to the one Holmes described.
Click to expand...

Alex, check out Mojo's excellent explaination on why Waite went for this image to indicate meditation--it really gives an added dimension to the card. It's on page 3.
 

Moongold

Requiescat in pace OR Memento mori ??

Great thread,

I've always understood this as simply rest before a fight of some kind, taking a breather in the spirit of the element.

As Holmes said, the 4's seem to be about harmony, stabilization. Why did the artist use these visual metaphors? Mojo's explanation seems as good as any, at least partly.

Pardon if someone else has said this, but the stained glass windows could represent *perception* or *illusion*. They change the nature of light. You can't see through the window clearly. The *death* or stillness is only metaphorical in other words.

Another meaning, and a more likely one in my opinion, the scene looks like a church too. Churches were and still are places of refuge and sanctuary. Could be as simple as that.

I haven't read every post thoroughly so excuse moi if someone has already said the above.

Moongold
 

firemaiden

Re: Requiescat in pace OR Memento mori ??

Moongold said:
Pardon if someone else has said this, but the stained glass windows could represent *perception* or *illusion*. They change the nature of light. You can't see through the window clearly. The *death* or stillness is only metaphorical in other words.
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Moongold, no one has said this, and it is important. It may be the missing piece. We are trying to put together what in the picture should tip us off the the idea of rest, rather than death. If the stained glass window suggests illusion, we can read the card as the illusion of death.

Do read the rest of the thread though, you will see why Mojo's history lesson is so terribly important in answering my original question...
 

firemaiden

meatbox666 said:
Mine says that he's " dead to the world"
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Oops, forgive me, Meatbox, I didn't register this before. Yeah, "dead to the world" that's really great; it is definitely a saying that the picture suggests.
 

Moongold

How wonderful is Death
Death and his brother Sleep

Shelley, 1792 The Daemon of the World

Thirteen said:
Alex, check out Mojo's excellent explaination on why Waite went for this image to indicate meditation--it really gives an added dimension to the card. It's on page 3.
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Pamela Colman Smith did the pics and the word I hear is that there wasn't always congruence between what Waite said he meant and what the pictures say. That is a bit of historical Tarot gossip that I cannot substantiate beyond feeling that I read it somewhere. It may have been in one of Pollak's commentaries - I'm not sure.. but I heard that Waite and Colman Smith developed a rift of some sort

FIREMAIDEN ....It's Colman Smith's birthday tomorrow. I think she would be entranced to listen to all this discussion about what her pics represent. See thread: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11550

Back to the picture, FM, you're having us all on, aren't you hon? But let's go with it genuinely.......

In the broad light of day if you have a clear look at the Knight's face it is PINK and I think his hands are slightly pink. Yet his body is encased in elegant concrete. Now that should make the metaphorical wheels spin, surely? Perhaps it means that the Knight is alive NOT dead (unless he is enbalmed?) Perhaps he ccould be seen to be resting, or poised in prayerful meditation? The elegant concrete though? I don't think we're going to be able to leave metaphor behind absolutely.

Would the balance of probabilities be enough? Given all these options can you feel beyond reasonable doubt that the card could mean *resting* ?

I'm satisfied that there is room to make that judgment....:(.
(How do you get these smiley things to smile when you want them to LOL?)

Thank God for Pamela Colman Smith. This eccentric, highly spirtual but impoverished woman artist has kept some of the best Tarot minds ticking over for almost 100 years!

Every discussion is a tribute to her in that it keeps her memory alive.... and recognises her work in a way that it wasn't whilst she lived!

Moongold
 

firemaiden

Looking at the card again:

Moongold said:
Back to the picture, FM, In the broad light of day if you have a clear look at the Knight's face it is PINK and I think his hands are slightly pink. Yet his body is encased in elegant concrete. Now that should make the metaphorical wheels spin, surely?
Moongold
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Hmmm, What the bit of pink in the Universal RW card shows, Moongold, is that Mary Hanson Roberts was as uncomfortable with the effigy as I, because the original coloring, as far as I can see from the enlarged card on the "learn tarot" site, has no pink, zip, nada, none. Just deathly yellow. The Universal Waite card also differentiates the knight from his support (white) and gives him a bit of shadow which makes it look like his lying on the coffin, not part of it...

edited to say: Scratch that! They both have the shadow!

Some things in the original drawing do point to life however, with or without color, if you look at it blown up very large -- the rendering is so carefully detailed. We see nostrils, creases and folds in the sleeves, a pattern of squares in the pillow, and I think I see an open collar. His hands are not pressed together, but held ever so slightly apart and at an angle from eachother. A good stone sculture could do all of this I suppose, but it does look very life-like...

There is a "z" on his sleeve. ("zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz"?)

There is further mystery that perhaps someone can clarify for me: the decoration to the left of the swords ends in the tiny head of a lion...or is it a ram??? What does that mean?
edited to say: I think it is actually a ram's head.
 

Moongold

Re: Looking at the card again:

firemaiden said:
Hmmm, What the bit of pink in the Universal RW card shows, Moongold, is that Mary Hanson Roberts was as uncomfortable with the effigy as I, because the original coloring, as far as I can see from the enlarged card on the "learn tarot" site, has no pink, zip, nada, none. Just deathly yellow. The Universal Waite card also differentiates the knight from his support (white) and gives him a bit of shadow which makes it look like his lying on the coffin, not part of it...
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Ah Firemaiden, I got up early this morning to see if there are any further developments. When I read your post I got out the magnifying glass to look at said skin, feeliing more like Sam Ryan my heroine from Silent Witness every minute. (In case you don't get that TV show in the US, Sam Ryan is a forensic pathologist.) Certainly the Knight looks moribund. But I can't offer much more than that right now.

I need a 4 Swords myself now, feeling a wee bit weary, so will climb back into my untomb-like bed for a bit more zzzzzzz.

Will continue to watch with great interest.

I wend to death, knight stith in stone;
Through fight in field I won the flower;
No fights me taught the death to quell -
I wend to death sooth I ye tell.

Anonymous
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Thanks heaps,

Moongold
 
about the Emperor card How do you incorporate reversals?