Birth Data WITHOUT Time/Date

sunstallion

I want to have an astrology compatibility done between me and a few people. But I do not have the birth time of one person, and no birth time and birth place of couple people (just the date only).

A few astrologers I asked told me that it's okay not to have birth time and it's also okay not to have birth time and birth place (just the date only).

So, I would like to ask anyone in here: How accurate is the chart with exact birth time and birth place vs. the chart with just birth time vs. the chart without birth time and birth place (just the date only).

Thanks

Bernice

Hi sunstallion,

1) Exact birth time and birth place.
No problem at all.

2) Just birth time.
Without a location the chart angles cannot be found, and without a date neither can the planetry postions be discovered.

3) Without birth time and birth place (just the date only).
For an accurate natal horoscope = no chance. But the planetry postions could be known.

I'm wondering what astrologer told you that a horoscope can be drawn up with "just a time".

If some new-fangled method for discovering the angles (barring psychic input) has now been discovered, could someone please let me know?

Bee

Minderwiz

A very good question Sunstallion

Your astrologers are right on both counts BUT (and you knew there would be a BUT):

It all depends on what you mean by Compatibility

You are assuming (as I did initially) that they meant, what we normally think of as compatibility - a two way or mutual process. That is you get on with them and they get on with you. For this to be done you need both natal charts and you need accurate times of birth (for these purposes THEIR chart can be out by an hour or possibly up to two hours)

However there is a weaker form of 'compatibility' - are they someone that you would get on with (though the reverse may not apply or apply as strongly). In this weak form of compatibility, you are really only interested in where their planets lie in YOUR chart.

If you know their accurate time of birth you can look at your chart with their planets, Ascendant and MC placed in your houses, which not only will give you some indication of compatibility in general but also WHERE you are compatible, e.g. as friends, lovers, work colleagues, siblings, parent and child, etc. (and obviously you can reverse the process for them, and look at your chart in terms of their houses)

As their natal data becomes less accurate, you will lose some of this data. If their chart is more than a couple of hours out, their Ascendant will be difficult to establish, even through approximation. Even when slow, the Moon moves at around 1 degree every 2 hours, so again, only knowing the date, rather than the time can put the Moon about 6 degrees out, if you take it's midday position.

Knowing the date only means that you can look at all the planets, but the Moon with reasonable accuracy relative to your chart. But the Moon is important, especially with compatibility because it says something about empathy. Also the Ascendant is a key factor, saying something not only about your physical body but also a lot about your temperament (the Moon is an almost equal contributor, the Sun making up the difference). Thus with no accurate Moon and no accurate Ascendant you can't do any real assessment about their temperament (and that is important to you) and obviously nothing about your compatibility with their temperament.

So the best you can hope for is a very general indication, if all you know is their date of birth. It might look promising if their Venus is in your Seventh, but if You are Phlegmatic/Sanguine and the are Choleric/Melancholic, their mood swings will drive you nuts. But with no accurate birth time, you can't do an accurate assessment to detect this possible incompatibility.

Finally, if you are approximating the Moon's position by taking it's midday placement don't forget to allow for any difference between local time when you were born and UT time, given in the ephemeris for the current Moon position. This becomes especially important if they are international friends or happen to have been born out of the country. If they were born in Australia and you were born in California, their date of birth will be 'wrong' - in your terms they could well have been born the day after the date of birth given, because Australian time is well ahead of USA time.

Bernice

Oh dear, I completely missed the focus of your post sunstallion, Compatibility. My apololgies. Minderwiz is correct.

However in the absence of what might be called 'crucial' data, I've wondered if a Horary might provide a solution. If the question were, "Will a relationship between X & Y be satisfactory to both parties?" it may answer if a basic compatibility exists.

I'm not sure if a Horary can be progressed. Technically it can, but whether or not it would be considered meaningful, I don't know.

Bee

Minderwiz

Bernice said:
However in the absence of what might be called 'crucial' data, I've wondered if a Horary might provide a solution. If the question were, "Will a relationship between X & Y be satisfactory to both parties?" it may answer if a basic compatibility exists.

I'm not sure if a Horary can be progressed. Technically it can, but whether or not it would be considered meaningful, I don't know.

Bee

Yes a horary would work as the horary chart is independent of both natal charts and would show all dimensions of the issue. However horary has a drawback here - It could identify that X & Y have the potential to form a romantic relationship (or any other specified relationship) but it wouldn't show the permanence o the relationship, i.e. that X & Y will therefore live 'happily ever after' or even be together in 5 years time. Horary is relatively short term.

sunstallion

thanks for your reply, but you also forget one thing: what if I have the birth date, birthplace, but NO birth time. This case happens a lot.

Bernice said:
Hi sunstallion,

1) Exact birth time and birth place.
No problem at all.

2) Just birth time.
Without a location the chart angles cannot be found, and without a date neither can the planetry postions be discovered.

3) Without birth time and birth place (just the date only).
For an accurate natal horoscope = no chance. But the planetry postions could be known.

I'm wondering what astrologer told you that a horoscope can be drawn up with "just a time".

If some new-fangled method for discovering the angles (barring psychic input) has now been discovered, could someone please let me know?

Bee

sunstallion

thanks for your reply, but you also forget one thing: what if I have the birth date, birthplace, but NO birth time. This case happens a lot.

Minderwiz said:
A very good question Sunstallion

Your astrologers are right on both counts BUT (and you knew there would be a BUT):

It all depends on what you mean by Compatibility

You are assuming (as I did initially) that they meant, what we normally think of as compatibility - a two way or mutual process. That is you get on with them and they get on with you. For this to be done you need both natal charts and you need accurate times of birth (for these purposes THEIR chart can be out by an hour or possibly up to two hours)

However there is a weaker form of 'compatibility' - are they someone that you would get on with (though the reverse may not apply or apply as strongly). In this weak form of compatibility, you are really only interested in where their planets lie in YOUR chart.

If you know their accurate time of birth you can look at your chart with their planets, Ascendant and MC placed in your houses, which not only will give you some indication of compatibility in general but also WHERE you are compatible, e.g. as friends, lovers, work colleagues, siblings, parent and child, etc. (and obviously you can reverse the process for them, and look at your chart in terms of their houses)

As their natal data becomes less accurate, you will lose some of this data. If their chart is more than a couple of hours out, their Ascendant will be difficult to establish, even through approximation. Even when slow, the Moon moves at around 1 degree every 2 hours, so again, only knowing the date, rather than the time can put the Moon about 6 degrees out, if you take it's midday position.

Knowing the date only means that you can look at all the planets, but the Moon with reasonable accuracy relative to your chart. But the Moon is important, especially with compatibility because it says something about empathy. Also the Ascendant is a key factor, saying something not only about your physical body but also a lot about your temperament (the Moon is an almost equal contributor, the Sun making up the difference). Thus with no accurate Moon and no accurate Ascendant you can't do any real assessment about their temperament (and that is important to you) and obviously nothing about your compatibility with their temperament.

So the best you can hope for is a very general indication, if all you know is their date of birth. It might look promising if their Venus is in your Seventh, but if You are Phlegmatic/Sanguine and the are Choleric/Melancholic, their mood swings will drive you nuts. But with no accurate birth time, you can't do an accurate assessment to detect this possible incompatibility.

Finally, if you are approximating the Moon's position by taking it's midday placement don't forget to allow for any difference between local time when you were born and UT time, given in the ephemeris for the current Moon position. This becomes especially important if they are international friends or happen to have been born out of the country. If they were born in Australia and you were born in California, their date of birth will be 'wrong' - in your terms they could well have been born the day after the date of birth given, because Australian time is well ahead of USA time.

Minderwiz

Well the answer was there by implication

Unless you have a fairly accurate time (within a couple of hours) place but not time doesn't really make you any better off, than simply birth date alone. You might as well cut cards for their Ascendant, even if they know that they were born 'in the morning', or in the afternoon' it becomes pot luck. So you have to use their planetary placements (on their birth day) and put them on your own chart. Obviously the same reservations apply in terms of the Moon's movements and you also have no Ascendant for them.

There are methods for rectifying a birth chart but none of them are foolproof and you would need to have a very good knowledge of the other person's life, or quiz them in terms of important events in their lives. It's OK if it's your own chart you are trying to rectify but unless the other person is interested in Astrology it's not really the done thing to ask someone if you can rectify their chart to see if you're going to get on with them or not LOL.

Bernice

Minderwiz said:
......snip .......

There are methods for rectifying a birth chart but none of them are foolproof and you would need to have a very good knowledge of the other person's life, or quiz them in terms of important events in their lives. It's OK if it's your own chart you are trying to rectify but unless the other person is interested in Astrology it's not really the done thing to ask someone if you can rectify their chart to see if you're going to get on with them or not LOL.

These were also my thoughts as rectifications usually require a lot of indepth work, plus the end result is not always very reliable.

Bee

Minderwiz

It's perhaps important to point out that rectification does not produce the 'correct' birth time. Rather it produces, at best, a time that works well for as a predictor of events that have already happened, and on that basis we assume it will continue to work well in the future.

Also if rectification is not to be entirely spurious, we need a first approximation of the birth time which is very near the 'correct' time. Most birth times given on a birth certificate would fall into this category, as quite often the birth time is recorded a few minutes after the birth, when the medical team are sure that everything is OK.

The purpose of rectification is to improve predictions, if you are not making predictions (as in this case) it's not really add much as the starting estimate is already sufficient.