Birth Data WITHOUT Time/Date

sunstallion

Minderwiz said:
Well the answer was there by implication

Unless you have a fairly accurate time (within a couple of hours) place but not time doesn't really make you any better off, than simply birth date alone. You might as well cut cards for their Ascendant, even if they know that they were born 'in the morning', or in the afternoon' it becomes pot luck. So you have to use their planetary placements (on their birth day) and put them on your own chart. Obviously the same reservations apply in terms of the Moon's movements and you also have no Ascendant for them.

There are methods for rectifying a birth chart but none of them are foolproof and you would need to have a very good knowledge of the other person's life, or quiz them in terms of important events in their lives. It's OK if it's your own chart you are trying to rectify but unless the other person is interested in Astrology it's not really the done thing to ask someone if you can rectify their chart to see if you're going to get on with them or not LOL.

I am still confused. So, you are saying with an exact birth does not matter. It's not significant ? It is a minor to without knowing birth time ? So, birth date and location are good enough ?

Minderwiz

I'll try again

sunstallion said:
So, I would like to ask anyone in here: How accurate is the chart with exact birth time and birth place vs. the chart with just birth time vs. the chart without birth time and birth place (just the date only).

Thanks

If you know their exact natal details (time, date, place) you can do an accurate compatibility reading. You might also be able to do this if you have a small error in their birth time - 2 hours max but preferably an hour or less

Otherwise

All you can do is a partial compatibility assessment - that is how likely you are to get on with them/like them but NOT the reverse (it's quite possible for one person to be madly in love with another but that love not be reciprocated)

It does not make ANY real difference if you know exactly when the were born, (time and date), but not the place or the place and date but not the approximate time (see above) or simply the date only.

In ALL those three possibilities all you can do is to superimpose their planets (taken from an ephemeris for the date they were born) and put them as an outer ring to your chart. This would allow you to see how their planets interacted with your houses and planets.

In the case of knowing their time of birth and birth date, but not the location, you can get round this easily by simply asking them where they were born (which they should know) In the other two cases you might not be able to get the information you need.

I must admit your use of the word 'chart' confused me a little, as it is impossible to have a chart without knowing a time date and place but you refer to it as 'the chart' rather than 'their chart' so were you referring to some other type of chart? That might be why, what I am saying does not answer the question you wanted answering.

Bernice

Minderwiz:I must admit your use of the word 'chart' confused me a little, as it is impossible to have a chart without knowing a time date and place but you refer to it as 'the chart' rather than 'their chart' so were you referring to some other type of chart? That might be why, what I am saying does not answer the question you wanted answering.

Maybe a Composite Chart? But to draw this up would need the full birth data of all parties.

Bee

Minderwiz

Bernice said:
Maybe a Composite Chart? But to draw this up would need the full birth data of all parties.

Bee

Yes I'd thought of that but as you say, it wouldn't work without both charts being exact.

sunstallion

Minderwiz said:
It does not make ANY real difference if you know exactly when the were born, (time and date), but not the place or the place and date but not the approximate time (see above) or simply the date only.

In ALL those three possibilities all you can do is to superimpose their planets (taken from an ephemeris for the date they were born) and put them as an outer ring to your chart. This would allow you to see how their planets interacted with your houses and planets.

Make sure I understand what you said. Like I said in my previous post that if you know their birth date and location only, it doesn't make a real difference in accuracy. But if you have one of those two cases 1> don't know the place they were born and know the date and birth time or 2> if you know the place and date, but don't know the birth time. Then it does make a big difference in your accuracy.

In the case of knowing their time of birth and birth date, but not the location, you can get round this easily by simply asking them where they were born (which they should know) In the other two cases you might not be able to get the information you need.

To me, normally people ask for birthdate, but not birth place. They even rare to ask for birth time.

I must admit your use of the word 'chart' confused me a little, as it is impossible to have a chart without knowing a time date and place but you refer to it as 'the chart' rather than 'their chart' so were you referring to some other type of chart? That might be why, what I am saying does not answer the question you wanted answering.

No, it's not because of the word "chart" that confused you or anyone. I just didn't quite understand what you said.

Bernice

sunstallion: To me, normally people ask for birthdate, but not birth place. They even rare to ask for birth time.

If it's clear that the data is needed for astrological purposes there's usually no problem - I've found that if people are interested they go out of their way to provide the relevant information.

Bee

Minderwiz

sunstallion said:
Make sure I understand what you said. Like I said in my previous post that if you know their birth date and location only, it doesn't make a real difference in accuracy. But if you have one of those two cases 1> don't know the place they were born and know the date and birth time or 2> if you know the place and date, but don't know the birth time. Then it does make a big difference in your accuracy.

I just want to make sure I undestand your issue:

Exactly how does it make a big difference in the accuracy of a compatibility reading?

In case 1> you have no idea of where they were born (and hence no idea of their houses (the only improvement over 2> below is that you have an exact Moon position

In case 2> you have no idea of the time of birth and therefore have no idea of their houses (you can of course still fix their planetary placements, though the moon is something of an estimate.

In essence you are still comparing their planetary positions to your chart. Yes you have a bit more info with an exact Moon placement (in 1>) but there's a very good chance that it lies in the same House as in 2>

In both you have no knowledge of their Ascendant and that really is the most important single piece of information.

Now am I misunderstanding you on this part of your question?

sunstallion said:
To me, normally people ask for birthdate, but not birth place. They even rare to ask for birth time.

I agree with you on the latter one but if you already know them well enough to have obtained the birth time, it's no big deal to find out where they were born.

sunstallion

Minderwiz said:
I just want to make sure I undestand your issue:

Exactly how does it make a big difference in the accuracy of a compatibility reading?

In case 1> you have no idea of where they were born (and hence no idea of their houses (the only improvement over 2> below is that you have an exact Moon position

In case 2> you have no idea of the time of birth and therefore have no idea of their houses (you can of course still fix their planetary placements, though the moon is something of an estimate.

In essence you are still comparing their planetary positions to your chart. Yes you have a bit more info with an exact Moon placement (in 1>) but there's a very good chance that it lies in the same House as in 2>

Now, I understand you with this explanation.

In both you have no knowledge of their Ascendant and that really is the most important single piece of information.

However, you threw in this sentence confused me again. So, without exact birth time, you can't find the Ascendant because that is the most piece of information, so the chart has a significant chance of errors ?

But you just said that without birth time, it is okay for the Moon.

Minderwiz

sunstallion said:
However, you threw in this sentence confused me again. So, without exact birth time, you can't find the Ascendant because that is the most piece of information, so the chart has a significant chance of errors ?

But you just said that without birth time, it is okay for the Moon.

Without a fairly accurate time, date and location (no exceptions to these three) you cannot calculate an Ascendant and erect a chart for them.

So without a location you cannot calculate an Ascendant even though you know the exact time of birth. That means that you can have an exact fix on all the planets (simply using an ephemeris and a calculator, or online site) But that information only tells you there exact zodiacal location, it tells you nothing about where they lie in the other person's chart.

So you can only compare their planetary positions (in terms of the zodiacal placements) with your chart and see which of your houses they lie in. That will give you some indication of how you will react to them.

BUT you don't have any real idea of how they will react to you which requires that you have their chart. In short, missing their Ascendant only gives you half the picture. However, that might be enough to indicate that you are unlikely to get on with them, or that there is some chance you will get on with them.

So take away their Ascendant and you only have half a picture. Half a picture, though, is better than none.

Bernice

Oh dear, so many explanations.... and they're just not sitting down for you.

I've finally concluded that the simplest thing would be to form your own opinion about what is and what is not relevant by having some grasp of how a horoscope/chart is drawn up.

The three fundemental items of data; Location (Lat & Long), Birthdate (day, month year), and Time (clock time), are needed because a chart is calculated in both time and space. Plus, everything is moving.

It's because everything is moving, that we need to get a fix on the specifics of an event/birth here on Earth.

First we need to create a map. It's foundation needs to pin down a Date & Location & Time (clock time). These (Earthly) factors are converted & calculated along with the position and movement of celestial factors in relation to the specific time-place of the event/birth on Earth. We are calculating to find.......

1) The point which was/is directly on the eastern horizon of the event/birth, this is the important Ascendant.

2) The point which was/is directly overhead of the event/birth, this is the Mid-heaven.

These are the basic bare bones of a chart/horoscope on which the framework of Signs & Houses are built up. After calculating the celestial Lat. & long.of the celestial bodies to the specific angle of this Time-Place of the earthly event, they are entered last into the framework of the chart.

P.S. Something that might be helpful to be aware of is the movement/passage of the Ascendant (point of the Eastern horizion at any earthly location) as the Earth rotates. It moves approx. One Degree of Arc every 4mins of our Clock Time. So you can see the difference between (for instance);

7pm = Asc.is at 4deg of Leo
7.28pm = Asc.is now at 9degs of Leo.

Even a difference of 10mins in a given birth-time will mean that the Ascending degree is two-&-a half degrees further into a Sign. (But we live & cope with these minor discrepancies as Minderwiz points out

)

Bee