Help Please- The Cosmic Tarot and Kabbalah/Cabala ????

La Force

I have been thoroughly enjoying The Cosmic Tarot deck.

I have owned this deck for a month and have intensely studied it, to the point my head feels like the 10 of swords, lol. I have had always wanted this deck for 10 years, however in my travels I seemed to have kept missing it. Therefore I took it as that it wasn't the right time for me. no worries. I plunged myself deep into other Tarot decks.

What attracted me so much to this deck you ask? There was something deep within the images, what was below the surface imagery that was depicted on the cards. Each time I googled images of it, I was trapped, bound into a boundless, timeless, space, with no words. I still get trapped into it's imagery, and not fully able to put my finger on it.

I read many reviews, watch many video reviews, read many threads here on AT about this deck. The more I read the more I had to get this deck. I at the time, deeply felt it was the perfect deck for that moment in your life of learning Tarot. "A Deck for every moment". In all that is written about this deck, it is clearly stated that Norbert Losche, simplified the imagery with minimal symbolic references.

"In creating this new Tarot, my intention is to make the old knowledge accessible and understandable to everyone by using as few secret symbols as possible. In this way people can grasp the meaning without knowing the old secret doctrines of astrology, cabalistic numerology, and the tree of life."

Wow I thought great, I have used and studied Kabbalah/Cabala with my most fav Traditional decks ( CBD Tarot Marseilles, RWS, Thoth ). Now with 3 decks alone the Kabbalah/Cabala system is some what different. how you may ask (CBD Tarot marseilles) follows (Wirth, Levi, Papus) (RWS) follows Golden Dawn, and then the (Thoth) also follows the Golden dawn, with changes/correction by AC. to the Kabbalah/Cabala Hebrew letters and the tree of life.

The Cosmic Tarot - has it's own Tree of Life that doesn't follow traditional systems of 500 yrs.

Hmmmmm so this where my huge question has now appeared.

Within the the first few days of owning this beautifully drawn deck, I started to notice little things, that made me go hmmmm. Then as time went on and the deeper I plunged into this deck, the more complicated it became cause it turns out there a discrepancies in the artwork as well in the system the Norbert Losche build this deck on.

The Court Cards don't follow any traditional Zodiac/Astrology that is in any of the Tarot decks of past, even The Mandala Astrological Tarot by A.T. Mann is more correct than the Cosmic Tarot Deck.

In all that I've read, not anyone had noticed this, I mean no one, I ask how could this have been missed? especially with all the hype over this deck.

Here is a link to a Thread I just posted today in the Study group
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=200936

La Force said:
Note: The Zodiac signs in the Cosmic Tarot of the King and Queen are switched, different From the RWS and Thoth. example; (cosmic Tarot) Queen of Wands = Sagittarius in Both (RWS & Thoth) Queen of wands is Aries. However once you look at the (Cosmic Tarot) King of Wands he is Aries.

Deck -----------(Cardinal)---------------(Fixed)---------------- (Mutable)

Cosmic --------------Kings-----------------Knights ------------------Queens
Thoth ------------Queens ---------------- Princes ----------------- Knights
Waite ------------ Queens ---------------- Kings ------------------ Knights

Now we know that RWS and Thoth did a switch with the Kings/Princes and the Knights/Kings. It really doesn't affect with placement on the Tree of Life.

Final Conclusion

RWS and Thoth - Tree of Life -------------------------Cosmic Tarot - Tree of Life

Chockmah = Kings ------------------------------------------- Princes = Chockmah
Binah = Queens ---------------------------------------------- Kings = Binah
Tiphereth = Knights ----------------------------------------- Queens = Tiphereth
Malkuth = Pages -------------------------------------------- Princess = Malkuth

As you can see;
The Queens, first become the Kings, then they become the Knights.
The Kings become the queens
The Princes become the Kings

then there is this change, subtle at first, then noticeably huge later.

Prince (Fixed) - Fire
Queens (Mutable) - Water
Kings (Cardinal) - Air

What do you notice that is wrong here? with the above Cosmic Tarot Courts

Traditional:
yod - Fire
Heh - Water
Vau - Air

Atziluth - Fire
Briah - Water
Yetzirah - Air

Chokmah - Fire
Binah - Water
Tiphareth - Air

Which Changes their placement on the Tree of Life (Sephiroth/Spheres)
Next I can assure you the cards from 2 - 10 also change due to their astrological assignments.

So My questions are of many I will start with Help please?

The Major Arcana - I can sort of deal with, for only two cards seem messed up. Justice and Strength. I can switchs these around by ignoring it's numeral value of 8 and 11.

However I am trying to wrap my head around the fact that I would need to revamp the tree of life (not the paths - Major acrana) but the Sephiroths/Spheres ( Card placements )

Anyone please with deep knowledge of history with the various ways Kabbalah/Cabala - Tree of Life has been applied to the tarot cards, to help me make use of this deck.

again I have many questions. would really like some help.

Richard

I don't have the deck, but there is no need to correlate the courts with Thoth and Waite. Doing that can drive a saint to alcoholism. It just makes it seem more confusing. The only important thing about their placement on the Tree is their elemental bias, not whether they are cardinal, fixed, or mutable. Apparently, the Princes go on Sephirah 2, Queens on 3, Kings on 6, and Princesses on 10. Does that help?

Le Fanu

Just as I was back in love with the Cosmic, somebody posts on it. I adore this deck. I was about to write a blog post on it. The sort of timeless, slightly dated retro- love I feel for this deck is what others must feel for the Morgan Greer and which I have never quite managed to feel.

I love everything about this deck and find that it has slowly, over the years, become my "easy" deck to read.

I have to confess, you lost me at the bit where you included a reference to one of your posts. I know I shall never understand all that Kabballah astrology stuff. I memorised it with the Thoth deck because I felt I had to, but as for understanding it and bending it to another deck that isn't going to happen anytime soon so I'll take your word for it. I'm sure you're right.

But I think what I have come to love about the Cosmic is that fact that it is magical and mysterious but is never too weighed down with excessive symbolism. I think the courts are among the easiest of all courts to read. That combination of who they might be (Uri Geller, is he the King of Swords, bending forks?) and the subtle details within the images speak so loudly to me.

I admit, every time the kabbalah and astrology get applied to a deck I love my heart sinks a little. As if I've not been using it properly.

Oh but the Cosmic is such a wonderful deck - I have nothing whatsoever to add apart from that - it is a deck I feel I can read for others with and it won't let me down. Such densely, masterfully accomplished illustrations. In another thread we were asked which deck was the "easiest" for us to read and a surprising number of people cited the Cosmic.

Richard

Le Fanu said:
......I admit, every time the kabbalah and astrology get applied to a deck I love my heart sinks a little. As if I've not been using it properly.......

A similar thing happened to me in a Lenormand forum. It turned me totally off to everything Lenormand. I can't shake the bad feeling, so my decks have gone out of sight and mind in the hall closet.

At least here no one is beating a drum for a particular methodology. A question was asked. An answer was given. This is probably the wrong forum for the topic, however.

Zephyros

I don't have the deck, and can't say I understood your post very well, I would have to think about it with a pen and paper to really get it.

However, I wouldn't worry abut correlating everything to everything, certainly not the Cosmic to the traditional GD decks (which, if you think about it, are relative newcomers to the Tarot scene and aren't that traditional). Every deck creator's system is different, and ultimately they all have the same purpose, to transmit the kabbalists's theories about the universe in a symbolic and meditative fashion. Kabbalah is a language, and using the basic structure, you can say anything with it (just as there is a correct way of speaking English, but there is no limit on what you can say with it). Meditating on different structures can only benefit you. Me, I love Kabbalah, I muse on the Tree as I take walks, just think of different combinations and whys and hows and ins and outs. The Tree, any Tree, is an endlessly fascinating diagram.

Sorry I can't say anything more than that, I don't have the deck, and haven't seen the Tree you're referring to.

Take it as a challenge.

Richard

Closrapexa, there are indications that it's the Kircher Tree. By "different Tree" she is referring to non-standard placement of the minors on the Sephiroth. She mentions that the Tetragrammaton goes on Sephiroth 2, 3, 6, and 10, starting with Yod (Fire) at Chokmah, Heh (Water) at Binah, etc. The elements of the courts are Prince-Fire, Queen-Water, King-Air, Princess-Earth. (Apparently the suits have the usual element symbolism.)

The problem seems to be that something gave her the idea that the Queen of Cups (I think) is associated with the solar plexus chakra, which she takes to be Tiphareth. That seems to be the reason for wanting to place the Queens at Tiphareth instead of Binah. (Also the astrological qualities/modes of the courts are non-standard, but I don't think this is relevant to the Tree placements.)

nisaba

Le Fanu said:
Just as I was back in love with the Cosmic, somebody posts on it.

Well, you *are* the centre of the universe, Le Fanu - these things just happen around you.

The sort of timeless, slightly dated retro-

<picking small crawling things> er ... how can something dated and retro be timeless? If it is retro and dated it is not timeless.

But I think what I have come to love about the Cosmic is that fact that it is magical and mysterious

The best decks are. It's when you can swim in a deck, submerge yourself in it, come up for air, and plunge back down into it again.

And every so often I find real people in decks. In the Gay Tarot, the Two Wands is all about my late housemate <grin>. In this deck, it's the Two Pentacles, the spitting image of an acupuncturist I used to work with years ago. I never like seeing famous real people in decks, but when I see *my* people in decks, that just adds a layer of mystery and magic: how *did* the artist know???

La Force

LRichard said:
I don't have the deck, but there is no need to correlate the courts with Thoth and Waite. Doing that can drive a saint to alcoholism. It just makes it seem more confusing. The only important thing about their placement on the Tree is their elemental bias, not whether they are cardinal, fixed, or mutable. Apparently, the Princes go on Sephirah 2, Queens on 3, Kings on 6, and Princesses on 10. Does that help?

Thanks, I took time in contemplating this. here are my thought with the said above, do correct me if I am wrong, Please.

Now is it not that the Zodiac Leo (Julu22 -Aug 22) Ruled by the Sun, in Kabbalah tradition, the beginning of their new cycle (year) :?:

, if so then this will make sense, Having the Prince of Wands - Leo, start off as first court at Chockman in the world of Atziluth ( Yod ) Fire

ETA said:
I was ale to answer this as it turns out has no reference to the Kabbalah new cycle/year. The hebrew new cycle/year is September. therefore there is not connection

Also by view it this way the Princes like the Thoth become the Knight, and the Kings become the Princes. I can totally wrap my head around this.

Cosmic Tarot

Prince (Fixed) - Fire - Chockmah

Wands = Leo - Fire of Fire
Cups = Scorpio - Fire of Water
Swords = Aquarius -Fire of Air
Pentacles = Taurus - Fire of Earth

Queens (Mutable) - Water - Binah

Wands = Sagittarius - Water of Fire
Cups = Pisces - Water of Water
Swords = Gemini - Water of Air
Pentacles = Virgo - Water of Earth

Kings (Cardinal) - Air - Tiphereth

Wands = Aries - Air of Fire
Cups = Cancer - Air of Water
Swords = Libra - Air of Air
Pentacles = Capricorn - Air of Earth

LRichard said:
Closrapexa, there are indications that it's the Kircher Tree. By "different Tree" she is referring to non-standard placement of the minors on the Sephiroth. She mentions that the Tetragrammaton goes on Sephiroth 2, 3, 6, and 10, starting with Yod (Fire) at Chokmah, Heh (Water) at Binah, etc. The elements of the courts are Prince-Fire, Queen-Water, King-Air, Princess-Earth. (Apparently the suits have the usual element symbolism.)

The problem seems to be that something gave her the idea that the Queen of Cups (I think) is associated with the solar plexus chakra, which she takes to be Tiphareth. That seems to be the reason for wanting to place the Queens at Tiphareth instead of Binah. (Also the astrological qualities/modes of the courts are non-standard, but I don't think this is relevant to the Tree placements.)

You totally got what I was saying that is is why I post this question, cause the deck left with the big HMMMMMMMMMM. especially when it made refernces to the queens in Tiphareth :bugeyed:

, I was then left scratching me head, and Hmmmmmm (WTF)

I so felt like the Ten of Swords here a link to image http://www.afoolsjourney.com/files/2012/10/10-of-swords-cosmic-tarot-deck-meaning.jpg As you well stated

LRichard said:
Doing that can drive a saint to alcoholism.

La Force

Thanks for helping out. Please anymore thoughts you have that will help spill the beans

La Force

Le Fanu said:
Just as I was back in love with the Cosmic, somebody posts on it. I adore this deck. I was about to write a blog post on it. The sort of timeless, slightly dated retro- love I feel for this deck is what others must feel for the Morgan Greer and which I have never quite managed to feel.

I love everything about this deck and find that it has slowly, over the years, become my "easy" deck to read.

You and me Both, I've only had this deck in my hands for a month, I can't stop wipping the drop off from my mouth, it's very captivating, draws you deep into the imagery. speakless.

Le Fanu said:
I have to confess, you lost me at the bit where you included a reference to one of your posts. I know I shall never understand all that Kabballah astrology stuff. I memorised it with the Thoth deck because I felt I had to, but as for understanding it and bending it to another deck that isn't going to happen anytime soon so I'll take your word for it. I'm sure you're right.

Yeah it doesn't follow and like you I also studied deeply into the Thoth as well as the Tarot of Spirit, The Tarot of Vampyres, The Medieval Scapini Tarot, RWS, Marseilles, and more. It is a wide range of how thses deck work with the various Trees of Life, Kabbalah/Cabala, Alechemy, Astrology, numerology. Each with it's own.

Norbert Losche, did make it clear that this deck is based on Kabbalah/Cabla, numerology, astrology, and Hinduism. So if there's a way there is the will, to find out what Tree/system he built this deck on. :?:

Le Fanu said:
But I think what I have come to love about the Cosmic is that fact that it is magical and mysterious but is never too weighed down with excessive symbolism.

Agreed, the imagery is free and not busy with symbolism that is why I love it

. not like the Scapini deck which is in my top 10 favorite decks, It's so busy with symbolism and mix match of different systems in one, can be overwhelming at times. Scapini uses a little bit Levi, little bit Papus, little bit Wirth, a little bit Waite, and little bit of this and little bit of that next thing you have is hodge podge mix.

Le Fanu said:
I think the courts are among the easiest of all courts to read. That combination of who they might be (Uri Geller, is he the King of Swords, bending forks?) and the subtle details within the images speak so loudly to me.

Totally agree

Le Fanu said:
I admit, every time the kabbalah and astrology get applied to a deck I love my heart sinks a little. As if I've not been using it properly.

due to you have already studied Kabbalah with the Thoth, The beauty of this deck it is beautifully illustrated in the imagery. ie: The Magician and Justice (rays of light and the crown), Aces (Ace of Wand show the lightening path of the spark that strikes you (Soul) way better than the Thoth's Ace, in all the cards. Should you view in that way you will just see it. It's so kewl, I found with Thoth I fully understood, yet when I looked at the cards I couldn't see it. It wasn't there no matter how hard I tried to see it. With this deck it there in the imagery. It make it so easy to understandl. I just been stumped with a few changes on some cards, (Courts) mostly. You may decide to pick up again.

Le Fanu said:
Oh but the Cosmic is such a wonderful deck - I have nothing whatsoever to add apart from that - it is a deck I feel I can read for others with and it won't let me down. Such densely, masterfully accomplished illustrations. In another thread we were asked which deck was the "easiest" for us to read and a surprising number of people cited the Cosmic.

This is such easy deck to read, I am thoughly enjoying it. Maybe you might want to share in the study group about the cards, would like to hear.

La Force

closrapexa said:
I don't have the deck, and can't say I understood your post very well, I would have to think about it with a pen and paper to really get it.

However, I wouldn't worry abut correlating everything to everything, certainly not the Cosmic to the traditional GD decks (which, if you think about it, are relative newcomers to the Tarot scene and aren't that traditional). Every deck creator's system is different, and ultimately they all have the same purpose, to transmit the kabbalists's theories about the universe in a symbolic and meditative fashion.

Thanks Good Point you make, Yeah the Cosmic doesn't follow the traditional GD decks (Model of the Tree of Life). The Cosmic is a different system, it very well does transmit the kabbalah theories in the imagery, totally.

closrapexa said:
Kabbalah is a language, and using the basic structure,

This is what I am trying to figure out. What is the Basic structure (Model Tree of Life) that Norbert Losche, is using for his deck.

Example:

Hebrew Letters and Planetary correspondences

Cabala 1; is credited to Isaac Luria (1534-1572)
Cabala 2; is Platonist
Kircher 1; was publish by Jesuit priest Athanasius Kircher (1652-1654)
Kircher 2; Eliphas Levi

The Cosmic, as it stands so far, is following the Cabala 2; Platonist.

closrapexa said:
Meditating on different structures can only benefit you. Me, I love Kabbalah, I muse on the Tree as I take walks, just think of different combinations and whys and hows and ins and outs. The Tree, any Tree, is an endlessly fascinating diagram.

Sorry I can't say anything more than that, I don't have the deck, and haven't seen the Tree you're referring to.

Take it as a challenge.

I also Love the Kabbalah, The Comic imagery in my opinion is the match for me, in my continue study. The imagery and I connect, I get the cards. what I don't get is the cards don't fit into the Standard (Tree of Life Model) that are currently used with most decks. This deck could be following (The Gra Tree of Life) instead. I am totally enjoy this deck, and I love abstract, thinking, analysing, everything and anything intellectual. I am always looking for patterns. keeps me busy and my mind as well. To me I am so in joying this challenge. It's a new take, view, opinion.

thanks for your input.

Help Please- The Cosmic Tarot and Kabbalah/Cabala ????

La Force

Richard

Le Fanu

Richard

Zephyros

Richard

nisaba

La Force

La Force

La Force