Etteilla and LS Book of Thoth. Help!

Moonbow

Grand Etteilla

I would be very interested to hear from any current Freemasons as to what they make of the symbolism on the Batons (nails) cards. And any other cards for that matter.

And also hear of anyone's experiences of reading with this deck. I have tried myself and found it to read similar to the Lenormand, although I rely on the English keywords and the image, and apparently there is a deeper meaning. Is anyone here more familiar with occult symbols, who is willing to share what these mean?
 

rif

Moonbow*, if I may ask, in what respect was it similar to a Lenormand reading?

I'd like to piggyback on this topic and ask which particular edition of an Etteilla deck anyone would recommend for purchase today, for someone who could use English keywords? :)

I also wonder if Etteilla and his contemporaries always relied on the keywords? One of the things that always seemed strange to me about the Etteilla style decks were the number of varied meanings, even on a single card (such as when the reversed keyword has no relation to the upright meaning). It seems impossible to memorize. But if the keywords are always intended to be on the deck, then it doesn't seem so challenging.
 

Bernice

Cerulean: post #8
All cards

http://www.tarot.com/tarot/decks/in...ckID=9&cardID=0


Now the Lo Scarabeo Jeu des Dames version (Book of Thoth Etteilla Tarot) has this listing in the Little White Book and it's really close (but not exact) to Editions Dusserre keywords in English.

If you also check out the above links, you can let us know if the cards in the Grimaud Edition with English translations on the keyword cards also helped:.. <78 cards listed>...
Hello Cerulean,

Thank you for taking time to list all the 78 card names.

I followed your link, and partway through matching the french/english text on the cards I just gave up.....

This LS version really isn't the same; some cards are similar, some cards arn't there, some cards have different (french) text, some LS cards have the image upsidedown when compared to the link-cards, some LS cards don't have the same reversed text - or it's the same as the upright link-card text.

It's a real mix-up. Having to copy each link-card, manipulate for the upsidedown text etc. it finally did my head in.

I'd just be happy to have a translation of the french divinatory meanings on LS version deck. Not the card name because I have that now.

The info. on the other version decks is very interesting to me, but I've got no further with this LS version.

Bee :)
 

Moonbow

Hi rif

The similarity between the Etteilla and Lenormand in respect of reading, at least for me, is that they both have more of a fortune telling feel to them. For example, the use of Male and Female querent. Also, the keywords for the upright and reversed card meanings are more fortune telling based, like 'betrayal, delay, expectation, the house, difficult situation'. The temptation is to read the card as per the keyword if the deck is unfamiliar and unlike a Marseilles these pips have nothing in the image (that I know of) to assist with the reading. The pip cards are split into two areas of blue at the top and yellow at the bottom, with just the suit element shown. The yellow section does show other obscure symbols which are difficult to relate to the rest of the card, and its these that I am asking about.
 

Sylvie Steinbach

Etteilla, Grand Lenormand and Freemasons

I doubt we will get anyone, who is really a Freemason to answer as they have sworn secrecy regarding their esoteric knowledge. Unless it is someone who 'used to' be one or is a metaphysician/historian specifically on this secret society.

Etteilla invented or possibly made more public the system of key cards. Mlle Lenormand had the Etteilla tarot when she was in her teens. The unsolved mystery to this day is that we do not know how she had such extensive knowledge of its use despite being raised in a covent most of her childhood.

The Etteilla system is intricate as the meanings are doubled (up and reversed) and the meanings change depending on the proximity of other cards (sounds familiar?). I studied it when I was in my teens and experiment with those cards for a little while. If you read cards, you will be disappointed. Its accuracy is minimal at best. If you use it to get a general idea of its message (using your intuitive mind), you may improve your results. But still...

The book I have, explains different ways to use the deck. I have to say those techniques are as complexed as the panoramic spread for the 36 Lenormand cards. Does it mean they pay out? Not so sure...It is like doing crosswords. Some people love that hobby so much they must do their crosspuzzles every single day because they say, it keeps their mind sharp. I think those techniques work the same way. Figure out what the symbols are connected with, why are they here will keep your mind working 24hs a day! lol ;-)

But the Etteilla falls short as a predictive tool to foresee the future in detailled manners. That may be the reason why, Mlle Lenormand (who also started with palm readings during the same period with the Etteilla -Gypsy connection, anyone?) moved on into playing cards (you get more specifics with it) and eventually created her own decks (like the Grand Lenormand!).

The reason I joked about the 'competition' aspect between Etteilla and Lenormand is for their attempt to make the more complicated deck on the planet. The Grand Lenormand is big, large and contains multiple references (geomancy (another secret society favorite hobby, ref Freemasons), fixed stars/constellations, flowers symbols, greek mythology as in the Etteilla Tarot and alphabetical letters). Some of the techniques used in the Grand Lenormand book are similar variations to the book I have on the Etteilla!!!

Of course I did studied the Grand Lenormand as well (easy transition from the Etteilla). I got the same poor results that with the Etteilla. However they are great puzzling decks for conversation because of their secret society symbols, karmic astrology references for example. I believe in some ways the decks were used to cast or determine some particular days to do certain things and/or to carry messages at the time the political climat was hostile (French revolution and post revolutionary unstability)....

Freemasons were not advertising themselves openly but had accessories to recognize each other and would pass on information coded about meetings and others...Let's not forget that Napoleon himself (despite his relationship with Lenormand via Josephine) outlaw fortune telling as a business (and it is still outlaw in the civil code of France today). That explains why Germany saw an explosion of Lenormand and fortune telling systems/tools because it welcomes metaphysics). So at one point, predicting the future in France was sending you in jail (as Lenormand experienced a few times herself) and it is a practice that was as much underground that being a freemason.

So my personal belief is that the reason the Etteilla fell off the popularity table over a period of time was because it was not that good as a predictive tool (same goes for the Grand Lenormand by the way). They have both remain conversation pieces and esoteric studies...for our enjoyment (see this thread!). The 36 Lenormand (called small vs grand) proved themselves to be more than adequate to do that job as well as simple playing cards (as favored by Lenormand herself).

The Tarot as we know it today has very little in common with the Etteilla and it is the most popular tool for divination. Even though it is a tough deck to master (if it is ever mastered?), it is not as complex to use as the Etteilla but still enough to satisfy the crosswords players. ;-)
The small Lenormand was the second most popular deck for divination except in English speaking countries who could not access to the prolific litterature available in German and French languages. So it is reasonable to say that the reason it was so popular besides its beautiful artwork was because it was providing results for a lot of fortune tellers. At the end of the day, Mlle Lenormand is renowned for that small deck. Not really for the Grand one! Most psychics do not know what an Etteilla looks like or how different it is from a Tarot. The same goes for where the idea of reading reversed tarot cards comes from (answer: Etteilla system) or the use of keycards to represent a querent (answer: Etteilla system again!).

I enjoyed posting on this thread (despite this very long posting, sorry!) because it gave me an opportunity to explain the why and how the Etteilla and the Lenormand consequently are linked. And how my method described in my book is not just a Sylvie's crazy mind invention ;-) but an ancient technique put forth into a Tarot deck called an Etteilla, an amazing piece of esoterism knowledge!

Blessings...

Sylvie Steinbach
 

Cerulean

Here's a few suggestions...but it may take too much time

This is maybe too involved, but here's some ideas:

First I'd write down the upright card words on

Thieren's traditional meanings listed on sacred texts has keywords--at least in my test of three minors, the Ace-Two-Three of Wands--that seem to be very similar within the first suggested keywords that give English alternatives. One can go through a minor suit, having the cards in order on a table or surface next to your keyboard, and page through the link by doing previous or next...and after you are satisfied the keywords are similar enough, write down.

For instance:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Ace of Wands (#35)

Thierens link: Ace of Wands

TRADITION: Birth, source, principle, beginning, origin, cause, reason, creation, invention. Some say also: family, but this is probably to be taken as 'family-descent,' or parentage or origin of the family, which is a different idea. Reversed: Fall, perdition, decadence, decline, ruin, etc.

http://sacred-texts.com/tarot/gbt/gbt31.htm

Keyword on Grand Oracle Jeu des Dames or LS Book of Thoth Etteilla Tarot

Ace of Wands: Chute (Upright- Droit) - Fall/descent (google search)

Reversed: Naissance - Birth/origin (google search)

Two book sources:

Bill Butler Dictionary of the Tarot:
Waite: Creation...birth...family...fall...decadence

Paul Huson Mystical Origins of the Tarot:
Etteilla (Ace of Wands): Birth, commencement, nativity, origin, creation: Reversed: Downfall, cascade, decadence...

So if I want a good collection of collective meanings and want to do the upright interpretations quickly in a list, I'd page through Thierens for each minor, start my list...and then one could go through Waite's Key to the Tarot through Sacred Texts for comparisons if that helps.

But to be honest, you are right, it's food for thought with every card, because our twenty-first centuries sensibilities would say, "Hey, shouldn't birth be the best thing and an upright meaning instead of the reverse? Why is descent or fall the first meaning? Why is Etteilla's meaning so upside down to my thinking and what I am reading?"

In this case, one could be confused when writing this up, but I want to soak up Theiren's ideas...given 18th century sensibilities which might be that the 'descent of the family' might a good thing...or if you are a French enlightenment sort, perhaps the ideas of an old structure falling and making way for a new enterprise isn't a bad thing...or perhaps the querent falling into a new enterprise or new situation...or a birth...hmm...

At least it helps give you a comparative context.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
2. Two of Wands (#34)

The second sample...Two of Wands in the deck (Book of Thoth/Oracle Jeu des Dames) upright meaning of Chagrin and Thierens meaning of melancholy seems to fit:

TRADITION: Melancholy, sadness, surprise, astonishment, consternation, terror, fear, enchantment, trouble, but also on the other hand riches, fortune and magnificence.

http://sacred-texts.com/tarot/gbt/gbt32.htm

Reversed on the card is surprise, which is also included above.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
3. Three of Wands (#33)

Keyword: Enterprises (Upright-Droit)
Reversed: Peines A leur fin ( peine meaning sorrow, sadness, trouble, effort, penalty)

Theirens:

TRADITION: Enterprise, effort, essay, trade, commerce, discovery, usurpation, daring, temerity and also imprudence, interruption, cessation and 'the end of troubles,' discontinuative.

THEORY: The rather contradictory descriptions of this card's significance are well explained by its zodiacal position: Air on the Third house, which doubles the influence of 'air' and of the mercurial vibrations and effects. This card has the accent of the suit of wands. It must consequently denote: communication, reflection and all that comes from these. This needs little explanation.

CONCLUSION: Communication, instruction, reflexion, message, writing, postage and letters, superficial knowledge,

http://sacred-texts.com/tarot/gbt/gbt32.htm

So enterprises is noted above and end to penalty or sorrow as well.

I hope this helps a little. Paul Huson's Mystical Origins of the Tarot has the greatest assortment of collective meanings in text to help compare, but doesn't pick up on the Freemasonry commentary presented by the kind contributors here.

If you don't feel the need to spend the money for Paul Huson's text when you can check through Thieren's text online at sacred text as well get black and white drawings of PCS's pictures on the pages you scroll through--maybe that will be helpful?

Regards,

Cerulean

Bernice says:

I'd just be happy to have a translation of the french divinatory meanings on LS version deck. Not the card name because I have that now.

The info. on the other version decks is very interesting to me, but I've got no further with this LS version.

Bee :)[/QUOTE]
 

rif

My goodness, that lengthy post from Ms. Steinbach has answered my Etteilla questions quite well!

Sylvie Steinbach said:
Etteilla invented or possibly made more public the system of key cards.
Was this the person card, like the "Etteilla" card, or did he also use key cards that varied according to the question asked?

The Etteilla system is intricate as the meanings are doubled (up and reversed) and the meanings change depending on the proximity of other cards (sounds familiar?).
Yes, it does. :)

I studied it when I was in my teens and experiment with those cards for a little while. If you read cards, you will be disappointed. Its accuracy is minimal at best.
Really? That is disappointing. Still, if it provided methods that have given value for other areas of cartomancy....

The book I have, explains different ways to use the deck. I have to say those techniques are as complexed as the panoramic spread for the 36 Lenormand cards. Does it mean they pay out? Not so sure...It is like doing crosswords. Some people love that hobby so much they must do their crosspuzzles every single day because they say, it keeps their mind sharp. I think those techniques work the same way.
I don't do crosswords, but I have an analytical mind and tend to enjoy working with "systems" in my cards. :D

But the Etteilla falls short as a predictive tool to foresee the future in detailled manners. That may be the reason why, Mlle Lenormand (who also started with palm readings during the same period with the Etteilla -Gypsy connection, anyone?) moved on into playing cards (you get more specifics with it) and eventually created her own decks (like the Grand Lenormand!).
Myself, I've found some really good and detailed results from playing cards. It's really helped my approach to reading cards in general. And this is one of the reasons for my interest in Etteilla, to learn more about his contributions to cartomancy. Beyond the meanings that carried over the to Golden Dawn tarots.

The reason I joked about the 'competition' aspect between Etteilla and Lenormand is for their attempt to make the more complicated deck on the planet. The Grand Lenormand is big, large and contains multiple references ... Some of the techniques used in the Grand Lenormand book are similar variations to the book I have on the Etteilla!!!
I recently got this Grand Jeu. It's a very nice looking deck. I don't know all the mythology or symbolism; I have to refer to material about the cards when I use it. I've only worked with it a little bit. So far I've gotten some nice but very generalized, advice-type answers from it. I used to dabble with geomancy, and its something I want to work with again. I just need more time in the day!

Let's not forget that Napoleon himself (despite his relationship with Lenormand via Josephine) outlaw fortune telling as a business (and it is still outlaw in the civil code of France today). That explains why Germany saw an explosion of Lenormand and fortune telling systems/tools because it welcomes metaphysics). So at one point, predicting the future in France was sending you in jail (as Lenormand experienced a few times herself) and it is a practice that was as much underground that being a freemason.
I've always wondered why the Germans seemed to have so much more readily available (in English) Lenormand material and information.

The Tarot as we know it today has very little in common with the Etteilla and it is the most popular tool for divination. Even though it is a tough deck to master (if it is ever mastered?), it is not as complex to use as the Etteilla but still enough to satisfy the crosswords players. ;-)
Heh. I favor a Golden Dawn approach to my tarot; and the Etteilla has always seemed an impenetrable mystery and historical curiosity to me. But I'm still intrigued! Sometimes I like to read a good mystery. :)

I enjoyed posting on this thread (despite this very long posting, sorry!) because it gave me an opportunity to explain the why and how the Etteilla and the Lenormand consequently are linked. And how my method described in my book is not just a Sylvie's crazy mind invention ;-) but an ancient technique put forth into a Tarot deck called an Etteilla, an amazing piece of esoterism knowledge!

Thanks, I had been wondering, and I certainly enjoyed reading your informative post.
 

Cerulean

The Grand Etteilla as a crossword puzzle--at least!!!

Cerulean says
Ah, that's why I don't do crossword puzzles anymore--I have the Grand Ettella as my "NY Times" of the past...I hope my own commentary above and the Theirens meanings online is helpful to others as a comparison.

After reading the above, I can see if Bernice or others would not want to go through the trouble to find the meanings translated--because that really might only the start to how to read with this deck.

The very few times I did these spreads with the Julia Orsini "Book of Thoth" instructions translated in my Editions Dusserre or my BP Grimaud English instructions for the Grand Etteilla, the querents did know it was an experiment...and they really had to search their minds almost too much to try to 'match' the period scenario suggested--if I used the straight meanings from the translated Book of Thoth. But I'm still really working on my reading skills...and it's likely it was my weakness in updating the meanings on the fly.

The updated meanings beyond the Grand Etteilla, in more modern tarot terms made more sense to me if I take the idea it helps people identify past patterns or situations that can make them mindful of their future choices....and if I do a comparative reading with the same cards pulled using a modern tarot card/meaning---then the readings made more sense to us all!

But it was tough just working from outdated 'scenarios' that formed when I was checking through my "Book of Thoth" translations from Julia Orsini--the ones from Editions Dusserre and also the BP Grimaud decks--- and coming up with a reading "of a fair lad with a dark-haired wife spurning the advances of a bum and counting himself lucky that he'd run into a 'one-eyed' person mentally or physically to win a considerable sum..."...they almost read to me as period stories which might be creative and fun, but not quite the allegories of high truths.

Anyway, really enjoyed looking through the information here and soaking it in.

Best regards,

Cerulean
-------------------------------------------------------------------

My above commentary...just taking off from the thought of Ms. Steinbach:

the Etteilla and (tarot)it is the most popular tool for divination. Even though it is a tough deck to master (if it is ever mastered?), it is not as complex to use as the Etteilla but still enough to satisfy the crosswords players. ;-)
 

Sylvie Steinbach

Wow!

This thread is doing a public service for the Etteilla since it does not have any book support in English per say. Even though my crossword puzzle days are long gone, I really appreciate those good posts on this very obscure deck. Thank you to all contributors! It was an opportunity to bring back from its box, a longtime friend ;-)
 

rif

Hi all,

What about the Petit Etteilla? How does it fit into this tradition? I know it's a shorter deck -- 36 cards, like piquet and lenormand? -- and has more keywords for each card. But not much else.

I thought I read somewhere that the Petit was a favorite of Mlle. Lenormand, but I don't really know. When did Etteilla abbreviate his deck?