Qaballah and Tarot

Driley

Who goes where?

One of the reasons I suggested starting with the "small cards" is because I've seen relatively fewer ways of linking them to the tree of life than I have the major Arcana.

As jmd points out, the Golden Dawn tradition links the Major Arcana to the paths -- which is at least neat on its face as there are 22 paths and 22 Major Arcana cards. But I have seen at least two different systems for doing this. Other traditions link the Major Arcana to the Sephiroth, usually leaving off the fool and following a system which assigns the cards based on the Path of the Sword (or the Lightening Bolt) and then based on the Path of the Serpent -- or some such scheme. I have seen at least three ways of doing this -- all of which seem to me to have at least some merit.

My suggestion that we leave Court Cards and the Major Arcana aside for a moment wasn't based on merit or advocacy of a particular position. It was simply a suggestion for an initial topic of exploration. And, certainly, we should get to the Major Arcana at some point -- preferably soon. But we've a need to start somewhere and this seemed an interesting an approachable place to start.

Arguing against assigning the small cards to the Sephiroth is, of course, one position that is certainly possible. And, as I think can be seen, has a valid history.

I recently read William Grey's Qabbalistic Concepts and he suggests the following as a way to begin to understand the relationship between the suited, numbered cards and the Tree.

He suggests that the suits be seen as carrying the following spheres of influence:

Wands -- Learned
Discs -- Earned
Cups -- Glad
Swords -- Sad

Then you simply combine the suit sphere with the referenced Sephirah. So, for example, the 5 of Swords becomes "Sad Severity." Broadly speaking, Grey asserts, this gives us most of the traditional meanings of the cards.

I've tried this out -- trying to tie the meanings I know for the cards to this system -- and found that it seems to be an accurate pointer about 2/3rds of the time. Like most "Keyword" systems, it is shallow, sure, but no more so than others. And certainly it is meant as no more than a pointer to the meaning, rather than as a definition of the card. To imply otherwise would be doing a disservice to Grey.

What do you think?

Later, I'll suggest another system -- which is more complicated and has somewhat richer results. But for now, we can play with this (as well as whatever else others would like to suggest).

Have fun!

David
 

Driley

Names

It occures to me that not everyone may have an English translation of the names of the Sephiroth. So, here is an attempt at offering one version:

1- Crown
3-Understanding 2-Wisdom
5-Severity 4- Mercy
6-Beauty
8-Glory 7-Victory
9-Foundation
10- Kingdom


Personally, I think "Beauty" is a good translation that isn't particularly useful. I prefer "Harmony" and when I say "Crown," I really think "Source." But your mileage, as they say, may vary.

David
 

jmd

Thanks for that David.

For those who wish to see that Tree of Life, attached is a copy from this site. The names of each Sephiroth mentioned in the above post coincide with the spheres in the respective positions.

Also, and though the version attached has 22 paths, not all versions of the Tree have 22 connecting 'paths'. But they do all have 10 Sephiroth (the eleventh sphere referred to as Da-at, Knowledge, is not a Sephirah).

The key-word system provided above is, of course, interesting, but I wonder if this shows why making those connections can be problematic. For example, if we take any twos, and really try to understand the 'nature' of two, I personally do not sense that it truly equates with Wisdom... though one can somewhat find associations between any two concepts.

I would be interested in reading your responses...
 

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Ravenswing

Whoa!!

me again--

i think perhaps our chariot has gone a bit wild. let's pull in the reins a bit so we don't dump some of the riders....

i believe everyone here has a good grounding in tarot-- else you wouldn't be here :) the mystery path we are now traveling is the the kabala-- or at least some sub-portion of it. kaballah is in a sense larger than tarot. this being, it become easy to stray off the path into unknown underbrush and deadends and a possible cliff or two (shades of the fool reversed!! LOL).

have we yet decided on a book to follow?? i think this idea has gotten lost in the shuffle. my thoughts on this is that if we have one major 'text' that all share plus one free choise, we get a whole library to refer to.

right now it seems to me that we have a lot of information gone into lightly. we make be skating on thin ice here. a small bit at a time, gone over slowly is my preference. there have been so many times in my own personal studies that, by glossing over a point, it took me years (quite literally) to straighten out a point.

jmd is doing what i believe to be a wonderful job at presenting the sefer yetzirah. this is a cornerstone for the understanding of the importance of the hebrew alphabet and the sephiroth.

driley's line introduces the tree as already existing, a nice counter point.

but i have a feeling that many out there are experiencing overload. one of the important things is memory. remember when you first had 78 whole different things to memorize???
i know i'm still working some of that out :)

i'd like a show of hands please. who's out there listening?? any comments, ideas, complaints?? are we being clear enough to proceed as we are???

i have no idea unless there's some feedback. please let me know. this can get to be (no, not get to be, it IS) a difficult topic, and there have been times where i have been lost and not even known it :)

time for me to shut up and go to work

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steve
 

Dragonfly

Thank you Steve I am very new at this and the info is great. If there is a book that would be helpful so we/ I have starting point.
I do not want to hold anyone back. Thank you to all of you in advance for your help. Blessing :)
 

Ladyhawke

I have a suggestion. To get us all on the same page, how about we do a "Qabalah for Dummies"? A couple of weeks of just plain Qabalah -- what the sephiroth are, what the paths are, how they connect to each other, that sort of thing. 'Cause I've got a basic knowledge of Qabalah, but it tends to make my head hurt.... :) And after we all can name the 10 spheres up the tree and down in our sleep ;) then maybe we can move on to applying the cards.

And just to throw another book or two into the mix, Ellen Cannon Reed's "The Witches Qabalah" and "The Witches Tarot" are pretty good. "Witches Qabalah" focuses on the spheres and all their correspondences, while "Witches Tarot" goes into the paths (and her system of which cards go where) and their correspondences. For knowing absolutely nothing about Qabalah before reading them, they gave me a pretty good foundation (though they do have a Pagan/Wiccan slant, if you couldn't tell by the name...).
 

Dragonfly

Hi Ladyhawke I have been reading the Witches Qabalah and it has been very helpful I have also been reading Dion Fortune The Mystical Qabalah. I like your idea of doing the basic for a few weeks so that we can all be on the same page. Have a great day :)
 

Ravenswing

back to basics

my dear ladyhawke and dragonfly--

you echo my thoughts. dragonfly, i see you have dion fortune's mystical qabalah. personally, that is my vote for a text. i just re-bought it from amazon for $12.00-- a great price for a text. she gives a very clear explaination of the western mysteries and the development of the tree of life. (and it is written in chapter/verse form-- makes quotes easier to find) she was a member of the golden dawn-- the group where most of our modern system has come from.

we could do a chapter a week-- they're not very long. say monday through wednesday to read, thursday and friday to discuss. or some such.

i think we need to build our tree before we hang our cards on it.

feedback please??

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steve
 

Dragonfly

Yes let plant our trees in fertile ground so that they may grow strong and that we may spread out our branchs to touch and help each other. A chapter a week sounds good to me of course if someone needs more time that's fine to. I am sure we all have job, family, school and life it self. I feel its important not leave anyone behind or feel that just because they don't have a book or time to read to let the group know. I belive we are all here to learn but also to have fun. Blessings to you all :) Just a note my comupter at home is dead so I need to use the one at work. So I may not get back to you untill the next day west coast time. :)
 

Driley

Dion Fortune

Well, it wouldn't have been my top choice -- I'd rather use "Chicken Qabbalah" but I can go along with the group on this one. Especially as it provides an excuse to buy yet another book.

Some people are Tarot addicts -- but I've my favorite deck and only buy a new one about two or three times a year. But books -- oh, I can buy all of them.

I'd also like to offer the following website for many good links with a wealth of basic (and some not-so-basic) information:

http://www.digital-brilliance.com/kab/


Enjoy!