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Huck - are you saying that Etteilla's card #1-"Etteilla" was really supposed to be the Sun God Apollo or was it supposed to be Chaos? What then, was his 2nd card, Eclaircissement, supposed to represent? My understanding was that Etteilla's original deck had for the 1st-Etteilla Card, simply an opening in the clouds with no Sun - and that the Sun was added later.

It is indeed curious that the Etteilla card should be somewhat like a Chaos card in one deck and an Apollo/Sun card in another.

But I'm confused, Huck, about the point you are making re: Etteilla.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teheuti View Post
Huck - are you saying that Etteilla's card #1-"Etteilla" was really supposed to be the Sun God Apollo or was it supposed to be Chaos? What then, was his 2nd card, Eclaircissement, supposed to represent? My understanding was that Etteilla's original deck had for the 1st-Etteilla Card, simply an opening in the clouds with no Sun - and that the Sun was added later.

It is indeed curious that the Etteilla card should be somewhat like a Chaos card in one deck and an Apollo/Sun card in another.

But I'm confused, Huck, about the point you are making re: Etteilla.
Hm ... I simply say, that it can't hardly be accident, that the early Poilly decks produced a phenomenon (Chaos as a playing card) at a specific position (Nr. 1) and that Etteilla repeated these both features without knowing about the figure Chaos in the Poilly deck.

That's a curious accident and it's very likely, that it is no accident, but something else, an unknown context.

... :-) ... This "unknown context" is then the "riddle", and with that it is that, what a good researcher with some instinct should look for.

Chaos is an old Greek idea with a very direct relation to a figure called "Momus" and Momus played a greater role especially in French carnival.


http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9..._de_la_Calotte

The "Regiment de la Calotte" (founded 1702) took the motto "Favet Momus, luna influit", from which we easily understand "Momus" and "Luna".

Momus got in the version 2 of the Minchiate Francesi the number "29" ... there are some natural conditions (29.53 days between full moon and next full moon) which associate the number "29" to "Luna".

Also one shouldn't overlook, that the long reigning Louis XIV was called "Sonnenkönig" n Germany, I don't know, what you say in English, but this means "sun-king" or "king of the sun" or something similar.

Well, this are all puzzle-pieces of the riddle, what the Minchiate Francesi might mean, and enough indication, that one should research this Minchiate Francesi, when discussing this strange Etteilla order of the trumps.
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So Chaos in this house of cards..the Pollys of 1660, 1730 and 1763


Thanks Huck, womderful, now I can follow the ideas

I do not have the best takes on Hermetic history, but the Chaos card and your notes on the three Polly card designers are an observable feast. Your werk shines again.

Cerulean




Quote:
Originally Posted by Huck View Post
Hm ... I simply say, that it can't hardly be accident, that the early Poilly decks produced a phenomenon (Chaos as a playing card) at a specific position (Nr. 1) and that Etteilla repeated these both features without knowing about the figure Chaos in the Poilly deck.

That's a curious accident and it's very likely, that it is no accident, but something else, an unknown context.

... :-) ... This "unknown context" is then the "riddle", and with that it is that, what a good researcher with some instinct should look for.

Chaos is an old Greek idea with a very direct relation to a figure called "Momus" and Momus played a greater role especially in French carnival.

[im]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Armes_du_r%C3%A9giment_de_la_Calotte..jpg[/img]
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9..._de_la_Calotte

The "Regiment de la Calotte" (founded 1702) took the motto "Favet Momus, luna influit", from which we easily understand "Momus" and "Luna".

Momus got in the version 2 of the Minchiate Francesi the number "29" ... there are some natural conditions (29.53 days between full moon and next full moon) which associate the number "29" to "Luna".

Also one shouldn't overlook, that the long reigning Louis XIV was called "Sonnenkönig" n Germany, I don't know, what you say in English, but this means "sun-king" or "king of the sun" or something similar.

Well, this are all puzzle-pieces of the riddle, what the Minchiate Francesi might mean, and enough indication, that one should research this Minchiate Francesi, when discussing this strange Etteilla order of the trumps.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerulean View Post
Thanks Huck, womderful, now I can follow the ideas

I do not have the best takes on Hermetic history, but the Chaos card and your notes on the three Polly card designers are an observable feast. Your werk shines again.

Cerulean
... :-) ... thanks, Mari ... But the deck is indeed a fine object and deserves really some attention.
For the moment I think, that both older versions of the Minchiate Francesi (41 cards, 42 cards) might be from c. 1660, which would mean, that it falls together with the time, when Tarot became for unknown reasons "not popular". This is also the time, when medieval thinking started to be thrown from the table. Actually I think, that the title "Sonnenkönig" has some reference to that, what happened a few years before with Galileo. The sun became the center of the universe, and the idea of a geocentric world was gone.
It's somehow logical, that a monarch attempted to advertise himself as a "king like a sun" just then ... and it's also logical, that Tarot stopped to be a model.

Nostalgia saved it ... later.
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MikeH's qusetion on LeNormand and Petit Etteilla and Petit Oracle des Dames


Placeholder for samples and sources.

Coredil posted the link to the 1770 Etteilla Maniere of the 32 card piquet deck text, as well as the Gallica link that leads to free French manual of an 1890 Petit Oracle du Dames 42 card deck.

Coredil's thread:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=123910

and the 1770 Etteilla book:

http://books.google.de/books?id=CI85...page&q&f=false

And Petit Oracle des Dameshttp://gallica.bnf.fr/Search?idArk=&n=15&p=1&lang=EN&adva=1&adv=1&reset= &urlReferer=%2Fadvancedsearch%3Flang%3DEN&enreg=&t ri=&submit1=Start+search&catsel1=f_title&cat1=peti t+oracle+dames&ope2=MUST&catsel2=f_creator&cat2=&o pe3=MUST&catsel3=f_tdm&cat3=&date=daTo&daFr=&daTo= &sel_provenance_Part=toutPartenaires&sel_provenanc e_Edist=toutSNE&sel_source=toutSources&dateMiseEnL igne=indexDateFrom&firstIndexationDateDebut=&first IndexationDateFin=&tri=

Hopefully this leads to happy reading and comparison



I have Kaplan links...Christies...DDD notes.
a
Cartomancy closely affected by Etteilla patterns and reflect influence.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerulean View Post
The 1770 to 1773 book of Etteiilla online (without pictures) has Etteilla playing card meanings.


The Lismon 1850 reprint of the Petit Etteilla text has more illustrations than I can reproduce, but there are four line drawings or engravings with typeset meaning-- I tried to have jpgs done-so let me see if I can post later.

The Grimaud/Frances Cartes Petit Etteilla available through the mass market would be good to check if over the centuries whether it stayed true to the above.

But this is later--having the right size jpgs for me takes time and very little time available this week. But ithe 32 to 33 pack and data above is the suggested start, as Lismon and later
reprints may vary.
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Lazarus Lenain


Hello folks, sorry to have been so scarce. Great work being done here!

A question that was posted at my ArkLetter recently sent me on a hunt that landed me here at the French Wikipedia site (below) for the above-named fellow. The enquiry was about how to trace back the 72 Shem angels, and who was using/teaching them through history.

What made my eyes pop was the fact that Lenain published 'le science Kabbalistique' in 1823, and is claiming to be inspired by Etteilla and D'Odoucet.

I know that events ~after~ don't always accurately represent what came before, but in the case of a fellow who states direct inspiration from Etteilla and one of his principal students, both the title and the content are apt, don't we think?

http://translate.googleusercontent.c...7yXzEOiU-1xztA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christine View Post
The enquiry was about how to trace back the 72 Shem angels, and who was using/teaching them through history.

What made my eyes pop was the fact that Lenain published 'le science Kabbalistique' in 1823, and is claiming to be inspired by Etteilla and D'Odoucet.
Fabulous. Another piece of the puzzle. It would be very interesting to see Lenain's book.

It should be noted that there is no mention of Tarot in the lengthy description of his book. Also, I believe the translation from the French should say "The astrology of "Le Science Kabbalistique" was inspired, in part, by the works of Etteilla and of his disciple, Melchoir d'Odoucet . . ."

It does raise the question of whether Lenain's book influenced Lévi's 72 Clavicules de Salomon, which were related to the Tarot.
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Thank you, Chistine!

Here is La Science Cabalistique by Lenain, complete, in French. Avec Lettre-Preface de Papus.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Zqg...page&q&f=false

I just downloaded it. I love the internet! Now I just need to learn to read French!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rachelcat View Post
Thank you, Chistine!

Here is La Science Cabalistique by Lenain, complete, in French. Avec Lettre-Preface de Papus.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Zqg...page&q&f=false

I just downloaded it. I love the internet! Now I just need to learn to read French!
Christine - It looks like a great resource and one that might have influenced Lévi as well as Papus and later French Tarotists.

The online book offers an option (click the ”gear” on the upper right) to show as plain text. You can insert this into a translation program and get a rough translation that is easy to check against the original for clarification.

I did a search for every French tarot term I could think of and didn't find anything.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rachelcat View Post
Thank you, Chistine!

Here is La Science Cabalistique by Lenain, complete, in French. Avec Lettre-Preface de Papus.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Zqg...page&q&f=false

I just downloaded it. I love the internet! Now I just need to learn to read French!

Sadly one can only see a fraction of pages 25 and 26, which appear overlapped somehow, and as they contain the "Premiere Table Cabaistique" it is rather annoying! Despite the fact that my French is minimal too...
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