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I can confirm post #54 as text in the Lismon Etteilla


but they are not paginated the same as your 1838 text.

There are two advertisements also inserted by Lismon before card meanings begin.


The meanings and page 2 - 78 are after Mike H.s noted examples of his 1838 text. The Lismon Etteilla 1890 has this on 14 pages preced the meanings, but no table of contents and cannot see consistent page numbering prior to page 2-78 of meanings. The end of the booklet is La Folie ou L' Alchemist which if I am reading you right should be Folly or the Alchemist?

On that note, the fond confirmed follies of this particular Etteilla-mad alchemist bids you all a gentle and feeble wave of good nights..

.....Sinking oh so slowly
beneath the foam of too many
booklets and cards....

Cerulean
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Cerulean wrote,
Quote:
The meanings and page 2 - 78 are after Mike H.s noted examples of his 1838 text. The Lismon Etteilla 1890 has this on 14 pages preced the meanings, but no table of contents and cannot see consistent page numbering prior to page 2-78 of meanings.
By "noted examples" I assume you mean the example of the reading for the young lady, in which it is predicted that she will marry a rich young brown-haired man and have children, and also of the lady of the country and the going to the second row. Correct me if i am wrong.

Incidentally, the preliminary material that I duscussed, before the meanings but not counting the Introduction and the account of how to make one's own cards, goes from p. 41 through 50.

Before that, the "Introduction, ou l'origine des cartes" goes from p. 5 through p. 10. Then the account of how to make your own deck and samples of all the cards goes from p. 11 through 38. Then comes a 2 page section mostly giving a spurious long quote from Etteilla. Then the description of how to lay out the cards starts on p. 41.


In post 54 I noted two main differences between the c.1838 text and the French text in the Dusserre c. 2001. These man differences may have gotten lost in all the details.

(1) The c. 1838, on p. 12, says that one can make a deck oneself using the patterns provided on pp. 13-38. That is omitted from the Dusserre. (I surmise that the reason is that a later publisher is in the business of selling high-priced hand-colored cards, not cheap books with nothing in color.)

(2) The c. 1838 text says to use the lists of "synonyms or different meanings" for each card. This is on p. 44, of which I posted a scan. The Dusserre omits that recommendation. (I surmise that the reasonn for this omission is that the later publisher does not provide such lists.)

Does the 1890 Limon booklet, like the French Dusserre, also omit what is in the c. 1838 on these two points of difference? I would assume so, but it would be nice to know for sure.

I also said in post 54 that the Dusserre had a third method of card-reading that was not in the c. 1838 text. I was mistaken: I have subsequently found this third method described in the c. 1838 in exactly the same terms as in the Dusserre.
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Exclamation Christie's catalog with historic Etteilla deck samples / note to MikeH


Christie's Auction catalog with Etteilla samples:

As of April 2011, this link is still up and searchable--type Etteilla to get samples to view and description:

http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/l...D=4740225&sid=

I finally found on page 47 and 48 of the hardcopy June 2006 Christie's auction catalog a Grimaud-one with a similar blue back and this one is identified as Etteilla I. That is actually great news to me. But there might be flaws in this catalog dating ........some more study.

The hard copy catalog, should people be looking for it:
Historic Cards and Games: The Stuart and Marilyn Kaplan Collection.
Christie's.

Book Description: Christies, New York, 2006. Softcover. Book Condition: VG. 484 items/images catalogued for the sale, held Wednesday, June 21, 2006. Glossy red cover with color front illustration and white spine lettering; 300 pp. with color illustrations throughout.
---------------------------------------------------------
Note on pm exchange:
MikeH is good enough to go through the Lismon documentation thoroughly, so it will be later when corrections on the Lismon text? Hmm...

Since Mike H will be writing in context of compared texts in this thread, for now or even later, perhaps, we could open an new thread instead once all these comparisons are done?

I believe others are doing a wonderful work, so when I can, I will read and if I can, send via pm unless new resources can be posted.

Just fyi, I better send a pm about a few things--I noticed that an earlier posted question of 'noted examples' was edited while I was trying to answer. Sorry, I can clarify a few notes via pm and may be editing some forum posts for better clarification.

Thanks, be back soon, a few days to go over some material is needed.

Cerulean

P.S. This will also be a placeholder when I find an auction catalog from the Stuart and Marilyn Kaplan sale at Christie's in New York that I misplaced--- as I thought I had some Lismon and Grimaud Etteilla references that I may not have mentioned before.

As of April 2011, this link is still up and searchable--type Etteilla to get samples to view and description:

http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/l...D=4740225&sid=

P.P.S. I finally found on page 47 and 48 of the June 2006 Christie's auction catalog a Grimaud-one with a similar blue back and this one is identified as Etteilla I. That is actually great news to me. But there might be flaws in this catalog dating ........some more study.

The hard copy catalog, should people be looking for it:
Historic Cards and Games: The Stuart and Marilyn Kaplan Collection.
Christie's.

Book Description: Christies, New York, 2006. Softcover. Book Condition: VG. 484 items/images catalogued for the sale, held Wednesday, June 21, 2006. Glossy red cover with color front illustration and white spine lettering; 300 pp. with color illustrations throughout.


I may soon correct some recent posts with delight and thanks to others, especially to MikeH.

And Definite Apologies to all for not being able to find this color sample sooner.
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more Etteilla scans


Hi Cerulean and MikeH,
I wonder if anyone else is following this thread?

I've uploaded some more images:

A: Very old hand coloured Etteilla 1, with upright meanings on cards 1 - 5 and 8 - 12, with astrological symbols appearing only at the upper left, and the extra "esoteric" numbers on cards 13 - 17. I have no idea who produced it as it came to me without box or book, and although it has the 12 Avril 1890 tax stamp, I suspect it is an example of earlier warehoused stock. Only a handful of cards as yet; the rest to follow.
http://sumada.multiply.com/photos/album/129

B: All the suit cards from my older Etteilla 2 deck without tax stamp, except #26, which was lost before I got the deck.
http://sumada.multiply.com/photos/album/76/Etteilla_II

C: Comparative images of the 13 cards which differ between my older Etteilla 2 deck and my 1890 stamped Lismon Etteilla 2.
http://sumada.multiply.com/photos/al...decks_compared

As time allows I shall scan the suit cards from both the antique Etteilla 1 decks and the Lismon Etteilla 2. Also, a second Etteilla 3 deck is coming my way soon, with an interesting error in the suit of swords.

Cheers for now,

Sumada

PS: I'm a bloke ;~)
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Smile a quirky observation


Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeH
DECK VARIANTS, ETTEILLA II

... the suit titles on the right side using the usual tarot names of “Baton,” “Coupe,” “Epee,” and “Denier”—always in the singular—and on the left side using the French suit names of “Carreau,” “Coeur,” “Pique,” and “Trefle.”
Ignoring the fact that you have got your 'left and right' sides muddled, have you noticed that the left side is always in italics and the right side is not;
EXCEPT on the four Chevaliers, where both sides are in italics, AND both sides use the usual tarot names of “Baton,” “Coupe,” “Epee,” and “Denier”.

What's the significance of that I wonder?

ETA - Herewith a picture of the Etteilla II Knights as mentioned above:-



... plus a link to a whole lot more Knights from several other Etteilla decks.

http://sumada.multiply.com/photos/al...illas_Knights_
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumada
Ignoring the fact that you have got your 'left and right' sides muddled, have you noticed that the left side is always in italics and the right side is not;
EXCEPT on the four Chevaliers, where both sides are in italics, AND both sides use the usual tarot names of “Baton,” “Coupe,” “Epee,” and “Denier”.

What's the significance of that I wonder?
Perhaps because there is no "Chevalier" in French-suited cards?

I don't know why they couldn't have invented a "Knight of Hearts", etc., but they chose not to.
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Sumada wrote,
Quote:
Ignoring the fact that you have got your 'left and right' sides muddled, have you noticed that the left side is always in italics and the right side is not;
Thanks for the observations. I have added a note to my previous post (#55) with the correction, crediting Sumada, and also Ross for his addition. Cerulean noticed another error in the same post (about one of her decks). I've put another note in to correct that. (I left in my original errors, but then in square brackets put in what you two said as a correction.)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeH
Sumada wrote, Thanks for the observations. I have added a note to my previous post (#55) with the correction, crediting Sumada, and also Ross for his addition. Cerulean noticed another error in the same post (about one of her decks). I've put another note in to correct that. (I left in my original errors, but then in square brackets put in what you two said as a correction.)
I should note that modern French Tarots, in a pattern which I understand to date from around 1900 (no more precision?), have no such qualms about a having a Chevalier among the regular court cards. They have four court cards, and they have the French suits.
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THE EXPLICATION OF CARD 1: FRENCH TEXTS, ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS

I am going to continue comparing texts, now adding Cerulean’s translations to the mix. My overall objective is to answer the question: To what extent do we need any new translations of the "Julia Orsini" texts, beyond what is alrady in print?

I am going to look at the first section of the series of 78 "explications des 78 tarots ou Cartes Egyptienes formant le livre de Thot," as both French texts that I am comparing declare. It has to do with card 1. My French texts will be (1) that section in the book that I copied in Las Vegas, c. 1838, and (2) the corresponding section in the Editions Dusserre booklet that goes with the "Jeu des Dames" Etteilla III deck. it is c. 2001, but dates back much earlier, perhaps to c. 1850, judging from entries on WorldCat for a book of 78 pages).

These two texts, let me make clear, are extremely similar. For card 1, they differ in fewer than 25 words. However I did not find it easy to say in English what these texts say, or what their differences amount to.

I am going to use two English translations, as the basis for one here that hopefully combines the virtues of all four texts. One is that of the Dusserre, on facing pages of the bilingual booklet. The other is Cerulean's, based on a different booklet, c. 1890, which nonetheless seems also to derive from the c. 1838 book, an abridgement (of sorts) of either the c. 1838 or of the text used by Dusserre.

I will say at the outset that I have no special skills in French. However I think that an evaluation of the translations does not require special skill, beyond basic grammar and using a dictionary. My goal is not idiomatic French, but simply understanding what is said. I am certainly open to the input of people with such skills. But I think the hard part is understanding the section in the context of the rest of the book and the Etteilla tradition.

Also, if you want to skip the presentation and just read the end-result, my proposed translation with interpolated short added comments, go to the end of this post and scroll up a bit to the paragraph starting "To sum up..."

Here are the relevant pages of the c. 1838 book.



The Dusserre French version departs from the c 1838 in only a few ways. (1) In the middle, the Dusserre combines several paragraphs into one, no doubt to save space. This practice is typical throughout all 78 explications. (2) In the second paragraph, the Dusserre has “et vous la remplacerez par la no. 8”—"and you will replace it by no. 8"--whereas the c. 1838 has “et vous la remplaceraz comme il est dit, page 45”—"and you will replace it as it is said, page 45." We will see the significance of that change later. (3) When discussing the card’s meaning when near card 71, the Dusserre has “petite perte d’argent”—"small lose of money"--whereas the c. 1838 has simply “perte d’argent”—"loss of money." That is a small point (unless it’s your money). (4) The Dusserrre ends with 12 words not in the c. 1838, with new punctuation. And (5) Dusserre leaves out the cute illustration at the end.

Now let me turn to the translations.

Cerulean’s translation (http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=122670, post 2) stops considerably before the end of either the c. 1838 or the Dusserre. Cerulean said (somewhere) that the 1890 French text that she was translating did not include that material. This omitted material concerns the card’s significance when near particular other cards and when reversed. Dusserre not only includes that material in French but also in English. I will discuss that material later. For now, I will begin with Cerulean's translation:
Quote:
N. 1.
Etteilla - The Questioner
The Chaos

1. This card represents the chaos, spirit of God; this represent also the one who interrogates the oracles for the book of Thoth.
2. If you drew cards for the man, and it is not (a gentleman), then you must withdraw from play, and place it at the commencement/beginning of your line, without counting it in the number of the other (cards).
3. If it is for a lady, you must retrieve the card, it is useless, and you must replace it with (the appropriate card).
4.The tarot signifies discovery, meditation, profound spirit.
For Point 1, here is the Dusserre translation:
Quote:
This card represents chaos, the spirit of God. It also represents the Enquirer, he who seeks guidance through the use of the Book of Thoth.
It says much the same as Cerulean’s. I think the French “par le livre de Thoth” is “by means of the book of Thoth” rather than “for the book of Thoth,” but this is a quibble.

The Dusserre translation of point 4 is also close to Cerulean’s:
Quote:
This card means discovery, meditation, deep thought.
Dusserre translates “esprit profond” as “deep thought" rather than “profound spirit.” But “esprit” also can be translated as “mind.” The word-lists for the card later in the c. 1838 book would seem to include both, with a bit more emphasis on thought:



So either "deep mind" or "profound spirit" will do.

The Dusserre translation of point 2 above is quite different from Cerulean’s. Dusserre says,
Quote:
If you draw cards for a man and that this card doesn’t appear, withdraw it from the pack and put it at the beginning of your line. Do not include it in the total number of the cards
. I do not know what the 1890 French text says, but I do know that the Dusserre French text follows the c. 1838 original word for word.

I will take this point one clause at a time. (To follow what I am saying, you might need to refer often to the instructions for laying out the cards, as I have presented them in post 54.)

First, “Si vous tirez les cartes pour un homme...” “If you draw the cards for a man.,,” No problem here.

Next, “et que celui-ci ne sorte pas...” The verb “sortir” means, among other things, “to come out”; another translation is “emerge” (http://www.linguee.com/french-englis...on/sortir.html). The same verb appears at the top of p. 52 of the c. 1838: “Lorsque ce cartre sorte...”—“when this card appears....” In the exactly parallel discussion of card 8, as we will see, the French text uses “venir” in place of “sortir,” to the same effect. So the clause means, “and this (card) does not emerge.” Dusserre’s “appear” means the same as “emerge” or “come out.” Dusserre needs only to remove the word “that” to be good idiomatic English. I am not sure how Cerulean arrived at her wording.

Next we have “vous la prendrez dans le jeu”—“you will take it into play.” Cerulean leaves out the “it”; and her “from play” is wrong: “dans” means “in." Dusserre’s “withdraw it from the pack” is different: to withdraw a card from the pack is to put it into play. But Dusserre is also wrong. In order to get the 1 card, you might get it from the pack. But it might also be in one of the other six rows that you have laid out. So the literal “you will take it into play” is better; but more of an explanation of where it comes from is called for.

There is no problem with the next part, “put it at the beginning of your line”: Dusserre’s is the same as Cerulean’s.

And finally there is “sans la faire compter au nombre des autres”–literally, “without making it count in the number of the others.” Both Dusserre’s and Cerulean’s version are correct, but neither is very clear. The meaning is that you are not to count it with the seven cards with which you do the reading. I don’t know how else to say it.

So my translation of the whole sentence, adding clarifications in brackets, would be “If you are reading the cards for a man, and this card does not appear, you will bring it into play [from wherever it is, out of play] and place it at the beginning of your line, not counting it with the other cards [i.e. the seven you are reading].”

The next sentence begins “Si c’est pour une dame, vous la retirerez, elle est inutile...” Here the verb is “retirer,” meaning “retire,” not “retrieve.” Dusserre’s “If you are interpreting for a woman, the card is not relevant and you must withdraw it” is better than Cerulean’s “If it is for a lady, you must retrieve the card, it is useless.” But I like Cerulean’s translation otherwise, for its faithfulness to the original.

Then comes the part where, as I remarked earlier, the French version in Dusserre changes the wording from the French of c. 1838. C. 1838 has “et vous la remplacerez comme il est dit, page 45”—“and you must replace it as is said, page 45.” The problem is that page 45 says nothing about what to do if number 1 appears in the cards of a woman. It only says what to do when no. 8 appears for a woman or number 1 appears for a man. To fill in this gap, the Dusserre says, reasonably, to replace the 1 with the 8. Then the earlier instruction for what to do with the 8 applies: you put the 8 at the beginning of the line and replace it with a card drawn at random from the pack. Dusserre’s rewording is good, but it should also refer the reader to the appropriate page in their booklet, for what to do next. Cerulean’s “you must replace it (with the appropriate card)” doesn’t give the reader any idea of what the appropriate card might be.

So my translation of the sentence would be, interpolating an additional explanation in brackets “If the reading is for a lady, you will retire the card; it is useless. You will replace it with no. 8 [part in Italics, Dusserre only] [and do] as is said on p. 9. [Part in bold, c. 1838 only. Both parts belong in the translation. What it says on p. 9 is to put no. 8 at the head of the line and in its place put a card drawn at random from the pack.]"

We are now at the end of what Cerulean translated from the Lismon 1890 booklet. The Dusserre keeps going, as does the original c. 1838 book. I see no problems with Dusserre’s translations. It is not as literal as I would prefer, but that is a small point. Here is Dusserre’s version.
Quote:
If this card comes out the right way up, and is near cards no. 14, 17, or 18, it means trouble lies ahead. Around no. 76 the Enquirer needs to be wary; no. 71 means a small loss of money, no. 47 lack of success. However if this card falls between two good cards, it is auspicious.
I will give my more literal translation later in this post, as part of my proposed translation for the whole section.

At the very end of the section, the Dusserre French text makes a subtle change from the c. 1838, in what is promised to the person when this card appears reversed. I have already posted the c. 1838 paragaph: it is right above the head of the Egyptian priest. In contrast, here is the Dusserre:
Quote:
Renversee, elle annonce que le questionnant est un philosophe; elle lui predit gloire, immortalite (c’est a dire que son nom passera a la posterite la plus reculee).
And the Dusserre's translation:
Quote:
Upside down, it means that the Enquirer is a philosopher and that he will be crowned with glory and immortality.
There are two differences between the Dusserre French text and the c. 1838. The c. 1838 promises “gloire immortelle”—i.e. “immortal glory.” The Dusserre changes that to “gloire, immortalite”—i.e. glory and immortality. It then amplifies that change with a parenthetical remark: “that is to say, his name will pass on to the most remote posterity.” This remark does not appear in either the c. 1838 French text or the Dusserre English translation, but it fits the other change that the Dusserre French text has made. “Immortal glory” is achieved only in heaven. But our editor, c. 1850 or whenever, is a child of the French Revolution: He thinks glory on earth is preferable to that in heaven. For him the “day of glory” is not at the Last Judgment; it has already arrived, as his new National Anthem has it. The only problem is that glory on earth fades with time (as Petrarch pointed out in his “Triumph of Time”); well, our editor declares that when this card comes up, it can at least last til the end of history!

Here is my translation of the whole last sentence, taking into account both endings:

“Reversed, it announces that the male Enquirer is a philosopher; it predicts for him immortal glory [or so ends the c. 1838; the Dusserre ends “...it predicts for him glory and immortality (that is to say, his name will pass on to the most remote posterity)”].

The picture of an Egyptian priest seems to reflect this last sentence as it occurs in the c. 1838. This practice is typical of that book, which often illustrates the last sentence with a little picture, if there is room.

Here, it should be noted, the c. 1838's explication of the Reverseds corresponds well what is expressed in the word-list later in the book, where we see
Quote:
(Renversee.) LE QUESTIONNANTE. / Philosophe. Philosophique. Philosophiquement. Philosopher. Sage. Sagress. Sagement.
Both are in stark contrast to Papus’s list (Divinatory Tarot p. 20), which he claims to have gotten from L’Odoucet:
Quote:
Reversed: The Universe. The physical man or the male. The querent.
This emphasis on the physical being has something in common with the emphasis on worldly glory at the end of the Dusserre section.

The French texts here have been difficult but rewarding. And it is high time the Etteilla School was liberated from Papus (even though without Papus Etteilla might well be unknown today). I see now that I am going to have to check Papus’s lists against the c. 1838’s for more discrepancies.

To sum up, here is a revised translation of the entire section, as I see it, based on the c. 1838 text but including additions from the Dusserre French text, and drawing from both other translations as needed. The parts in square brackets are my comments and interpolations:

“No. 1: / ETTEILLA – The Enquirer (male)/ The Chaos.

This card represents the Chaos, the spirit of God; it represents also the one who interrogates the oracles by means of the book of Thoth.

If you are reading the cards for a man, and this card does not appear, you will bring it into play [from wherever it is on the table, out of play] and place it at the beginning of your line, not counting it with the other cards [i.e. the seven you are reading].

If the reading is for a lady, you will retire the card; it is useless. You will replace it with no. 8 [part in Italics, Dusserre only] [and do] as is said on p. 9. [Part in bold, c. 1838 only. Both parts belong in the translation. What it says on p. 9 is to put no. 8 at the head of the line and in its place put a card drawn at random from the pack.]

The tarot signifies discovery, meditation, a deep mind [or profound spirit].

When this card appears in its natural sense [i.e. upright] and is found near No. 14, 17, or 18, it signifies trouble. After no. 76, error; no. 71, loss of money; no. 47, lack of success. [All these cases are probably warnings, not predictions of what is inevitable.]

It is a good omen whenever it is found between two favorable cards.

Reversed, it announces that the male Inquirer is a philosopher; it predicts for him immortal glory [or so ends the c. 1838; the Dusserre ends “...it predicts for him glory and immortality (that is to say, his name will pass on to the most remote posterity)”].
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In the meantime this thread is quite busy and it seems to increase the interest for Etteilla.
I just wonder about one thing: as Etteilla wrote a lot (really a lot) wouldn't it be advisable to directly go to the source?
I mean the orignal text of Etteilla?
As Kenji pointed to in post #32 of this thread, the first cahier ist available as download at the BNF.
It seems also that some of Aeclectic members do have the existing reprint of the second and fourth cahier.
On my side I have the first, second and fourth cahier and I am waiting for a copy of the third cahier through the BNF.

Of course I am aware that the available sources are quite difficult to work with.
First they all are facsimile of the original print
Then, Etteilla has a quite heavy and confusing style and in my opinion he writes really a lot to explain only a few things.
But well he was the one who wrote all these things and it should be considered.

To contribute a little I would like to answer to the question Mike H, the starter of this thread asked in #34:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeH
So my question now is, where does Etteilla himself, or his immediate disciples, write about the seven days of creation? I want to know more about his rationale for putting them in the tarot.
Here is one answer I founded in "Le Second Cahier" (pages 8 to 21). These are explanations from Etteilla himself.
I attach scans of these pages in two post.

Maybe someone has enough time to transcribe the text in todays french and even translate it.
Of course for everyone reading and understanding french these scans are enough.
The scans are from the reprint edition from Etteillas work Kenji already mentioned:
Maniere de se recréer avec le jeu de cartes nommées Tarots
Pour servir de second cahier à cet ouvrage

Éditions Jobert, 1977
ISSN 0337-0674
(which is a reprint of the premier cahier and the second cahier

Best regards
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