Two Popes/Two Emperors?

le pendu

From the Mantegna.. circa 1460:

mant_e10.gif


The card is the Pope... but doesn't it also look like the Popess?
 

le pendu

From the Cary-Sheet:

carysheet.jpg


It *appears* that the full figure on the sheet is the Pope, not the Popess. The second figure is unfortunately only shown with as a fragment.

I'm honestly not sure which is which, but guess I lean toward the Popess as the partial and the Pope as the full. There is a pattern of the images moving left to right in "order as we know it", but there are exceptions as well.

cary_detail_popes.jpg


Note that the full figure does not wear the triple tiara.. does this indicate age? or does it indicate something else?
 

le pendu

The Caitlin Geofroy Tarot - 1557

The Popess:

geofroy_2.jpg


The Pope:

geofroy_5.jpg
 

le pendu

The Popess and the Pope from the "Tarot of Paris", "early 1600s"

compare_pope_papess_paris.jpg
 

le pendu

It seems to me that when looking at the iconography of the Popess, one of the main iconographic elements is the "book", but we have seen that the book shows up as part of the iconography of many of the Popes.
 

Rosanne

In regards to the Cary Yale sheet, that enlarges image of personage with Crosier; I do not think is a Pope. Firstly it is the shephards crook type and the Papal type with cross or three tiered stopped with Pope Innocent 3rd (1210) The Shephards Crook type is a Bishop's Crosier- not used by the Pope. It is sometimes used as a Saint's regalia. The image, is more like as if it was the Bisop of Toulouse aprox 1215 because he fostered the acceptance of the Dominican and Francescian orders under the guidelines of St Augustine.(the book)or maybe that is a representation of the Saint as in a Virtue as in FAITH and later became the Mother Church- Or maybe HOPE if it is him-Saint Augustine. He was the Bishop of Hippo and would have worn a fat sqaut mitre like is on the head of this image. Saint Augustine was the Saint most usually reresented with a Bishop's Shepards Crosier; also the robes of this Saint as well. Very Interesting this Cary-Yale sheet. ~Rosanne
 

Ross G Caldwell

le pendu said:
Some images for consideration:

First up, images from the Bologna... dated mid-1600s

bologneseparigi.jpg

bologneseparigi2.jpg


Interestingly, the Popess has her hand raised in blessing, and the Pope does not. And looking at these images it looks like the numbers were "added". I have to wonder if the cards are misidentified. Is the second image the Pope or the Popess?

Hi Robert, yes the cards are misnumbered. They shouldn't be numbered at all, and the person who numbered them followed the TdM system - since they are at the Bibliothèque Nationale, the numbering was probably done in France, perhaps by a former curator of the Cabinet d'Estampes.

I tend to think the figure holding the cross has more like traditional Popess features (cross and book), but both look feminine.
 

le pendu

Thanks for the clarification Ross!
 

le pendu

The Popess and the Pope from the Jacques Vieville, circa 1650

compare_vieville_popes.jpg


Note that the Pope here also does not wear the triple tiara, and holds the crosier, as seen in the Cary Sheet.

The crosier also shows up in the Jean Noblet (circa 1650), and the Jean Dodal (circa 1701-1715)

05-le-pape.jpg
V-web-bas.jpg
 

Rosanne

Hi Folks- here is a link that I think that is worth a look for all these images of Le Pape with a crosier that looks like a shepherds crook.
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/augustine.html
Seriously that type of Crosier is not a Pope's crosier, even for those who argue that it is a Popes by default as Bishop of Rome. The most common depiction in Medieval times was that of St Augustine of Hippo with a book or a Crosier or both. I realised why the Cary-Yale sheet image lokked so familiar. He is also a Doctor of Canon law- hence Blue Vestments.~Rosanne
The Vieville Pope especially!!!