Thoth vs Rider Court cards names and order

I noticed that Page = boy, Knight = 18-30 man, King = older man is the Significator choice of Eden Gray, the prolific writer who used Waite cards in her overwhelmingly popular books. Mary Greer who was heavily influenced by Gray also used this order in hers.

I don't know whether another author advocated this order for RWS before Gray, but it seems as though the original order was obscured by later writers' popularity.

LilySage said:

Oh my goodness guys, I am so glad I joined the forum!!

I don't know if you noticed, but I just joined today, specifically to ask this question. And what a wealth of knowledge here! Thank you so much for your answers. I admit that I am still not quite grasping it though... Going to read all the threads now and drink in all the knowledge. Hopefully it will make it clearer...

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The most common ordering used by Tarot readers is Page, Knight, Queen, King; but the technically correct ordering is Page, King, Queen, Knight.

It really doesn't matter much unless you get into the elemental attributions and the Tree of Life, and then the technically correct order is the only one that works consistently.

In the Rider-Waite, Thoth, or any other Thelemic or Golden Dawn based deck, Knights are the top rank and always are on horseback. Kings/Princes always are sitting on thrones or in chariots, and rank between the Pages and Queens.

The Tarot Illuminati is the only exception, I think, in which the Princes are on horseback, an unfortunate choice of symbolism. I just hope it doesn't start a trend. Things are confused enough as it is.

There's Thoth, Rider-Waite...and Rider-Waite Clones

Aeric said:

RWS was inspired by Golden Dawn, which uses the above order. But Waite chose to use card images from Marseille decks, where the King sits on a chair. The reason given is that the Knight brings his forceful, wild energy into the relationship with the Queen, hence why he rides a horse. He wins the Queen's hand, as before. His son becomes the new King, but because his power is inherited from his parents rather than created by him as daddy Knight had, he is "enthroned," trapped in a chair, his power more focused rather than erratic.

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This may be true, but Waite clones—meaning the many decks that copied Waite—often have their King's bearded and old, not young enough to be enthroned sons. So even if we grant this as the original intent of Waite's deck, by naming his princes "kings" he confused matters to the point where almost all decks based on Waite have the order as: King, Queen, Knight, Page. That, after all, is the way it is in almost all countries where there is a King, Queen, Knights and Pages. Knights are not above Kings and don't father Kings. Kings father Kings. And their sons are called Princes. And Knights are their elite soldiers, and Pages are Knights in training. (Yes, a prince can train and play at being a knight, but he's never *just* a knight. He's always a prince first and foremost.)

So, no surprise if those terms are used that that is how people will think of them and the order.

Crowley was smarter there. He made sure to have a very youthful Prince & Princess, and the highest level is the Queen. So the relationships now make sense. If a King marries, his wife becomes the Queen. But if a Queen marries, her husband tends to become a "prince consort" at best. So we can easily see the Knight remaining a Knight even if he is the Queen's consort. And her son and daughter by him would be Prince/Princess. He would still lead her armies, being the highest man in the land just as she is the highest woman.

And there really isn't an "order" here in quite the same way. There is the Yin/Yang equal of Knight/Queen, and the yin/yang equals of Prince/Princess.

Which is all to say, you can arrange Waite's courts as Knight-Queen-King-Page if you like, but almost all RW clones will have the arrangement as King-Queen-Knight-Page, in descending order of "rank" which tends to mean, with the courts, maturity and control over the suit (Kings would have the most control and maturity, of course. They're "masters" of their suits while Pages are the immature students of the suit). If you go with Thoth, however, you have Knight/Queen and Prince/Princess.

Also the Thoth court arrangement hints at other aspects within the psyche , attempting IMO at the new dynamic involved during the time of developing the Thoth (and previous) of the equality of the sexes. The active 'male' aspect may not be running the show exclusively anymore, but that doesn't mean it is not 'empowered'.

I think this is further hinted at ( how these forces inter-relate in the psyche) in a similar manner in the new iconography of this Thoth card :

http://www.bubastis-oto.org/wp-content/uploads//11-Lust.jpg

ravenest said:

The active 'male' aspect may not be running the show exclusively anymore, but that doesn't mean it is not 'empowered'.

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Agreed. Even if we grant Waite equality between his Knight/Queen (or King/Queen), the page is far lower in rank than any king/queen/knight. Male or female, the page, by that name, has to be the lowest run on that ladder.

But Crowley presents us with a Prince & Princess. Even though we tend to think of a Prince as higher in rank because he was (at least was in the past) heir to the throne, the Princess still had great value in being the one to marry foreign princes/kings, create alliances, bring dowries and become a ruling Queen. Sometimes, as in the case of, say, Catherine the Great, she became *the* Queen. So she can't be dismissed as powerless, as the Page can be.

Crowley's courts are much more in line with the original, Pagan ideals of god/goddess. Different genders, different spheres of influence, but equal in power.

The Waite deck, in effect, was transitional between historical Tarot and the Golden Dawn Tarot. Due to initiatory oaths, it was impossible for him to rename the Kings and Pages to Princes and Princesses. The only courts known to non Golden Dawn Tarot users were Page, Knight, Queen, King (or their equivalents in other languages). The Book T material was only accessible to upper grade Golden Dawn initiates. Apparently even Pixie was not privy to it.

I think we need to get straight the difference in mentality between Waite and Crowley (as if it were not obvious ). Crowley did not feel obligated the keep his initiatory oaths, while Waite took them far more seriously. In hindsight, the Waite deck is (superficially) esoterically defective, while Thoth is not, but it could not have been otherwise.

LilySage said:

Oh my goodness guys, I am so glad I joined the forum!!

I don't know if you noticed, but I just joined today, specifically to ask this question. And what a wealth of knowledge here! Thank you so much for your answers. I admit that I am still not quite grasping it though... Going to read all the threads now and drink in all the knowledge. Hopefully it will make it clearer...

Click to expand...

No-one fully grasps this stuff. You will change your mind MANY times over the years...

But thanks for a nice meaty thread I still believe me, but I see a lot of Thoth aficionados don't... (I got my view partly from talking to Lillie, who REALLY knows her Thoth but who sadly doesn't post any more.

LRichard said:

In hindsight, the Waite deck is (superficially) esoterically defective, while Thoth is not, but it could not have been otherwise.

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Yes, it is, but it could have been different. Waite may not have revealed much, but he didn't lie, either, except when it came to the Courts. His ordering isn't due to any system, since it doesn't coalesce with any of the other elements, or even with the cards themselves. It is simply a change meant to obfuscate, that isn't even on the cards, but in the companion book. A simple change would transform the deck into an accurate, albeit limited, esoteric representation, acting as a robust introduction to the mysteries. That was the point, after all.

I wonder how the deck actually affected society, if at all, through this change. Instead of a dynamic, active Knight as the leader, people accept a sedate and seated King, who is perhaps also monolithic and dictatorial. Instead of a Mother acting as the body of the kingdom, the rulership of the Father is the kingdom (L'Etat, c'est moi!). For me that's the crux of the whole issue, since Waite's approach encourages a wildly different viewpoint that can not only affect divination, but even day to day life.

closrapexa said:

I wonder how the deck actually affected society, if at all, through this change. Instead of a dynamic, active Knight as the leader, people accept a sedate and seated King, who is perhaps also monolithic and dictatorial. Instead of a Mother acting as the body of the kingdom, the rulership of the Father is the kingdom (L'Etat, c'est moi!). For me that's the crux of the whole issue, since Waite's approach encourages a wildly different viewpoint that can not only affect divination, but even day to day life.

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Wow, that's heavy.
But you're completely right, this might affect divination a lot.
I came to the conclusion that the Knights are Knights when I read the opposite on corax.com (although this is a very good site, great spreads and much more). I wanted to keep my Knight of Cups as birthcard, so I thought over it.

I studied history of arts, so I stated analyzing the card's iconography. The horses made much more sense with fire.... Just think how proud I was, when I found out I was actually right!

I use the Liber T which is a Thoth clone and I read the Liber T Knight as a King but I still see him as a Knight because he is the Queen's consort not her King. I always put the Queen first in the Liber T Courts because she is higher than the Knight. I know reading through this thread that others have different views but for me, this works out well and I'm comfortable with it.