Study Notes: Chrisitan Astrology

Minderwiz

Ok now my comments and questions:
(1) Is this true of all horary charts (and not just this 'generic first house' horary)?

Can the past and future aspects of the querent's significator reveal past and future events? I've noticed astrologers *sometimes* taking the *Moon's* immediate past and immediate future aspect (singular, not plural) but never building a connected series of events from the Ascendant Lord's aspects.

(2) Would one still do this if the First House Lord were Saturn? The previous aspect might lie well back in the past (and well forward in the future). The Sun is relatively fast moving.

(3) Does this 'past sequence of aspects predicts past sequence of events and future aspects future events' idea work only for First House Lord or for any other house Lord?

(4) If this is possible, shouldn't this be done for every horary chart? This would give excellent validation and improvement of technique over time. When did this drop out of the tradition?


Notes:

[1]Modern software (Solar Fire) gives a different sequence, but SF doesn't do moeity so that might explain the difference, I haven't checked.


12:08 February 28 Sun square Saturn
05:17 March 05, Sun conjunct Mercury
15:11 March 11, Sun opposes Moon
10:06 March 14, Sun sextile Jupiter
00:23 March 19, Sun conjunct Mars

[2] Sure the 8th is 2nd of 7th, but also 3d of 6th, 4th of 5th, and 6th of 4th. If the fact that Mars ruled 4th was the deciding factor, the 6th of 4th would be an equally valid deduction. So why not 6th of 4th? conflict with workers on land (say?)

It depends very much on the question that is asked. Indeed, I can't stress too much the importance of the question in framing the response. The question should be well thought out (the querent is supposed to take her or his time to get it right, and may negotiate it with the Astrologer (in order to ensure the Astrologer understands).

Some questions, such as those which do refer to past or present events, as in this case (and in your own Transit question) lend themselves to such a device. Note that Lilly only uses those aspects of this part of the question, though he could well use the reading to inform his other responses.

I've used this technique, but only rarely (because the opportunity is rarely there with the questions I've been asked). The Moon's aspects are more generally used, but then that's because the Moon has signification over the Sublunary world (what goes on down here) and it's much faster in terms of making aspects than any of the others (Mercury, Venus and Sun come next). So if your significator is Saturn, it's not going to be that helpful because it's slowness pushes the time between aspects back considerably compared to the other planets. You're left with symbolic time (which answers your second question).

Don't be afraid to use the technique if the question allows but it's not something that you would do in each and every horary.

You could use it for other houses as well, in answer to your third question but again it depends very much on the question. You could use it when the question relates to the movements of a family member or a friend, or a lost pet, though in the latter case most questions are going to be concerned with where it is now, so it can be found. The same could hold for stolen property, though as there are significators for the thief that doesn't help a lot. Lost items tend to be stationary so it's very rare that you might use the technique there. The use of the Moon for charting past and present events of quesited items might be more useful most of the time.

Clearly, from the above, this shouldn't be done for every horary (in answer to your fourth question).

Incidentally Solar Fire will do moieties and these are adjustable but they are not selected by default. From Chart Options, select Aspect Set and then select moieties.asp
 

RohanMenon

Now Lilly predicts events in the querent's future

The fundamental principle is the same as for the 'past event prediction'

Look at the aspects (here future aspects) formed by whichever planet you selet as the 'event significator' (here *Moon* *not* the first house Lord as in the previous 'look to the past' efforts) then look at the aspected planet and what role it plays in the horary chart in terms of location and rulership.

So far so good.

Note: Lilly first considers the state of the First House Lord and interprets that. Here the Sun exalted and not 'evil-aspected' by any other planet, renders it free of restriction and lilly interprets this as the querent as 'having the whole world to ramble in'. And since the Sun is on the 9th house cusp and in Aries Lilly predicts long journeys for his client.

Then he turns to the Moon and considers its next aspect.

The Moon is in the second, (so something about money) and applies to Jupiter (in 10th, Lord of 5th and 8th)

Lilly interprets this as the querent wanting to consult with a nobleman (Jupiter in the 10th) about the education (Jupiter?) of his children (5th) and wanting to use his wife's money (8th = 2nd of 7th) for this purpose.

Yowza! While this all 'fits' the symbolism, I have no clue how Lilly picked out this particular set of significations. As I noted earlier, I have no idea why he saw 8th as 2nd of 7th, and not (say) 11th of the 10th or 4th of the 5th (after all Jupiter is in 10th, rules 5th). This seems to be an intuitive leap guided by astrological symbolism rather than pure technique (which is fine of course).

The remaining future predictions elaborate on this. Skipped, because I can't extract principles *I* can use in my horary charts, but here is a flavor

"Fiftly, feeling the Moon was applying to a Trine of Jupiter, of which signification I spoke before, and then before she got out of the Signe Virgo, did occur the Opposition of Mars: I did aquaint the Querent, that after some yeers or times of pleasure, he would be in great danger of losing his Life, Goods, Lands and Fortune. His life[1], because Mars is in the 8th: His Goods and Estate,because Moon is in the 2nd: His Lands or Inheritance, because Mars is Lord of the 4th, now placed in the 8th. For the 4th house signifies Lands, &c." [2]

[1] After opposing Mars (in the 8th) the Moon moves to an opposition with the Sun the first house Lord, so this seems a distinct possibility. I wonder whether this querent actually lost his life in the time predicted (timing etc coming up)

[2] the interesting thing here is that unlike modern astrologers, after dealing with the *first* aspect formed by the Moon after the moment of chart casting, Lilly moves to the *second* such aspect and elaborates the future events, and hints at a third aspect. Modern astologers seem to stop with the very next aspect of the Moon, but of course this depends on the question as Minderwiz says above.

Still, it would be good to see predictions of "you and he will break up, then have a messy divorce dragging on three years, and then a year later you go insane and shoot him and go to jail" which is qualitatively different from "you guys will break up" ;-)

PS: Thanks Minderwiz, as always for the answers and clarifications, and for the moeties hint. I'll switch SolarFire to that the next time I work on my Windows laptop, where SF resides
 

Minderwiz

The fundamental principle is the same as for the 'past event prediction'

Look at the aspects (here future aspects) formed by whichever planet you selet as the 'event significator' (here *Moon* *not* the first house Lord as in the previous 'look to the past' efforts) then look at the aspected planet and what role it plays in the horary chart in terms of location and rulership.

So far so good.

Note: Lilly first considers the state of the First House Lord and interprets that. Here the Sun exalted and not 'evil-aspected' by any other planet, renders it free of restriction and lilly interprets this as the querent as 'having the whole world to ramble in'. And since the Sun is on the 9th house cusp and in Aries Lilly predicts long journeys for his client.

Then he turns to the Moon and considers its next aspect.

The Moon is in the second, (so something about money) and applies to Jupiter (in 10th, Lord of 5th and 8th)

Lilly interprets this as the querent wanting to consult with a nobleman (Jupiter in the 10th) about the education (Jupiter?) of his children (5th) and wanting to use his wife's money (8th = 2nd of 7th) for this purpose.

Yowza! While this all 'fits' the symbolism, I have no clue how Lilly picked out this particular set of significations. As I noted earlier, I have no idea why he saw 8th as 2nd of 7th, and not (say) 11th of the 10th or 4th of the 5th (after all Jupiter is in 10th, rules 5th). This seems to be an intuitive leap guided by astrological symbolism rather than pure technique (which is fine of course).

The choice of the eighth as the querent's wife's monies, is standard practice. Rather than take the eighth as death, in horaries where death is only a remote or very unlikely event, it's much more likely that it relates to one of its other significations, such as taxes or the money/income of the querent's partner (business or marital). The other possibilities you mention are remote form the querent and unless raised in the pre-horary consultation, are very unlikely - the eleventh from the tenth would suggest a friend or sponsor of the querent's employer - not someone he's likely to have an interest in.

The fourth from the fifth would suggest the father of the querent's children, which is, of course, the querent so it is clearly not appropriate. The querent has the first. It might be the home of his child/children. If they are still in childhood, that's likely to be the family home, if not then it's a possible meaning - for a question relating to the querent's children, and their hopes of buying a property or finding a new home. In the context of the current question, it's too remote.

The Moon aspects is an application Jupiter by trine. Jupiter in the tenth suggests magistracy of some sort, of nobleman, courtier or lawyer as Lilly says. Jupiter rules the fifth house (children) and the eighth (wife's money). So the application suggests that the querent wants to consult the nobleman about something to do with the querent's children and the querent's wife's monies. It's reasonable to deduce that the money is to be spent on the children in some way and the querent needs advice. The word education is used in a broader sense than modern English. We now have institutionalised education through the schools system. That didn't exist in Lilly's time. Education in that sense might be done through the church and the local vicar. It's more likely the children are older and the querent is considering either apprenticing them to a craftsman or if he's quite wealthy, considering sending them to Oxford or Cambridge.


RohanMenon said:
The remaining future predictions elaborate on this. Skipped, because I can't extract principles *I* can use in my horary charts, but here is a flavor

"Fiftly, feeling the Moon was applying to a Trine of Jupiter, of which signification I spoke before, and then before she got out of the Signe Virgo, did occur the Opposition of Mars: I did aquaint the Querent, that after some yeers or times of pleasure, he would be in great danger of losing his Life, Goods, Lands and Fortune. His life[1], because Mars is in the 8th: His Goods and Estate,because Moon is in the 2nd: His Lands or Inheritance, because Mars is Lord of the 4th, now placed in the 8th. For the 4th house signifies Lands, &c." [2]

[1] After opposing Mars (in the 8th) the Moon moves to an opposition with the Sun the first house Lord, so this seems a distinct possibility. I wonder whether this querent actually lost his life in the time predicted (timing etc coming up)

[2] the interesting thing here is that unlike modern astrologers, after dealing with the *first* aspect formed by the Moon after the moment of chart casting, Lilly moves to the *second* such aspect and elaborates the future events, and hints at a third aspect. Modern astologers seem to stop with the very next aspect of the Moon, but of course this depends on the question as Minderwiz says above.

Still, it would be good to see predictions of "you and he will break up, then have a messy divorce dragging on three years, and then a year later you go insane and shoot him and go to jail" which is qualitatively different from "you guys will break up" ;-)

I agree, where this can be done it should be done. But astrological prediction, even from a horary, requires some art. It's choosing the likely signification, which in turn means some grasp of context and the people involved. That's why Lilly, like most professional Astrologers, held consultations with his clients and learned as much about the situation as he could. It's not rabbit from hat stuff. Get one of those events wrong and the whole prophesy is seen as worthless, even if two thirds of it is correct. So it's very likely Lilly knows quite a bit of the context and background of the situation here

RohanMenon said:
PS: Thanks Minderwiz, as always for the answers and clarifications, and for the moeties hint. I'll switch SolarFire to that the next time I work on my Windows laptop, where SF resides

I have my version set to Hellenistic orbs (the asp file having been supplied by Chris Brennan) so I must admit to not having tested this against Lilly's predictions.
 

RohanMenon

It's not rabbit from hat stuff. Get one of those events wrong and the whole prophesy is seen as worthless, even if two thirds of it is correct. So it's very likely Lilly knows quite a bit of the context and background of the situation here

This makes a lot of sense. Thanks Minderwiz. Also, the unpacking of Moon trine Jupiter. Very educational.
 

RohanMenon

Lilly times the predicted events

Lilly now gives a time estimate for his predictions of the future to cmoe through. He initially uses his Common Signs = months, Fixed Signs = years, and moveable signs = weeks formula he introduced in the section before he started looking at an actual chart, but then diverges from this idea.

Thus Moon trine Jupiter is 3 degrees from perfection. So he takes the time at which this aspect will perfect, to be about 3 years from the point of the horary, and till then, the querent 'may live comfortably'. Note: The Moon is in Virgo and Jupiter is in Taurus, a fixed sign. It is the latter sign's mode that is considered for the timing not the formers.

Sun is exalted in Aries at 4 degrees, and continues in that sign for 24 more degrees before it moves to Taurus and loses its exalted status (and becomes peregrine) Lilly gives each degree a *month* which is a bit puzzling since in his schema he assigns weeks to movable signs, not months. How did he assign months to each degree? I have *no* idea

The next timing is even more puzzling.

Moon is in 21 Virgo, Mars is in 28 Pisces. So there is about 7 degees (more precisely 7 degrees 22 minutes) between them and both are in common signs, so by the sign mode logic, this should be about 7 months away.

But this is the second aspect the moon forms. The first is the trine with Jupiter which has been predicted to happen in 3 years. So this second aspect has been projected past 3 years (which is fair) and somehow Lilly ends up assigning 3 years and 3 quarters to this aspect. (no idea how he got this)

The only way I can make sense of this is to assume that Lilly assigned a month to each degree of the Moon opposes Mars aspect which gives 7 months which is more or less 3 quarters. This is added to the 3 years assigned to the preceeding aspect (Moon trines Jupiter)

I confess I'm completely lost, especially since Lilly also says (emphasis mine)

"
The difference is 7 degrees and 22 minutes; which if I proportion into time, and neither give yeers, because the Significators are in Common Signes, and not in Fixed ; or moneths, because the Signes doe signifie somewhat more; but doe proportion a meane between both: the time limited in this way of Judicature, will amount to about 3 yeers and 3 quarters 3 3/4 years) from the time of asking the Question, ere the malevolent Opposition of the Moon to Mars shall take effect:

But in regard his quere was generall, **** I might have allowed for every degree 1 yeer: **** After, or about which time, he was in severall actions both dangerous to hisPerson and Fortune; and since that time, till the time of publishing hereof, he hath had his Intervals of good and 111, but is now under the frowne of
Fortune, &c.
"

ok, so I don't understand Lilly's timing scheme after all, though I did grasp the "fixed sign = years' etc bit.

And I generally don't understand how to time perfecting aspects (and the events they precipitate) in Horary charts.
 

Minderwiz

Lilly now gives a time estimate for his predictions of the future to cmoe through. He initially uses his Common Signs = months, Fixed Signs = years, and moveable signs = weeks formula he introduced in the section before he started looking at an actual chart, but then diverges from this idea.

Thus Moon trine Jupiter is 3 degrees from perfection. So he takes the time at which this aspect will perfect, to be about 3 years from the point of the horary, and till then, the querent 'may live comfortably'. Note: The Moon is in Virgo and Jupiter is in Taurus, a fixed sign. It is the latter sign's mode that is considered for the timing not the formers.

Sun is exalted in Aries at 4 degrees, and continues in that sign for 24 more degrees before it moves to Taurus and loses its exalted status (and becomes peregrine) Lilly gives each degree a *month* which is a bit puzzling since in his schema he assigns weeks to movable signs, not months. How did he assign months to each degree? I have *no* idea

Timing is always difficult with horaries. There's no hard and fast time periods, simply because questions may relate to events that could happen in hours or even minutes on the one hand, or months or years on the other. Sometimes real time can be an obvious solution - the time taken till the aspect between significators perfects, but, unlike natal astrology, this often does not allow for the time frames implied in the question.

So, there's a rough symbolic timing system: Cardinal Signs/Cadent Houses tend to show the shortest relevant rime periods; Mutable Signs/Succedent Houses tend to show the medium term that is relevant and Fixed Signs/Angular Houses tend to show the long term that is relevant. But the Astrologer has to use his/her judgement in this, bearing in mind the context of the question and the situation described by the chart. This, as Lilly says is a matter of Art. It's something we aren't always able to be consistently correct on. Lilly's advice is to contract the judgement somewhat - that is err on the side of shorter possible times, rather than longer possible times.

The Trine of the Moon (in the second) to Jupiter in the tenth is just under 3 degrees from perfection. So how long with the associated period be? Well Jupiter is in Taurus (a fixed sign) and angular in the tenth. So years seem to be appropriate here.

Lilly says 'I judged for some times succeeding the question or for three years he might live pleasantly

Note for some times... , or for three years.... In effect being conservative, this is up to three years; hopefully all the way, given sign and house placement. With the Moon in the second and in Virgo, it might not go all the way but Lilly hopes so.

Looking at the Sun, Lilly sees it is in Aries, in the ninth (he uses a five degree range from the cusp) and it's got 26 degrees to run The Sun's in his Exaltation, there's no malevolent aspect, so he tells the querent that for just over two years, things will be fine. He's qualifying his Moon/Jupiter trine by saying 'hopefully you've got three years, but I'm really sure that you're going to get at least a little over two years' (my interpretation of his actions).

Why take months, when Cardinal House and Cadent Sign could be taken as weeks? Lilly doesn't think that makes sense. The Jupiter trine suggests three years that are good and the Ascendant ruler with a long run in its Exaltation, with no makefic aspects - suggesting 26 weeks (six months) just doesn't fit with three good years.

RohanMenon said:
The next timing is even more puzzling.

Moon is in 21 Virgo, Mars is in 28 Pisces. So there is about 7 degees (more precisely 7 degrees 22 minutes) between them and both are in common signs, so by the sign mode logic, this should be about 7 months away.

But this is the second aspect the moon forms. The first is the trine with Jupiter which has been predicted to happen in 3 years. So this second aspect has been projected past 3 years (which is fair) and somehow Lilly ends up assigning 3 years and 3 quarters to this aspect. (no idea how he got this)

The only way I can make sense of this is to assume that Lilly assigned a month to each degree of the Moon opposes Mars aspect which gives 7 months which is more or less 3 quarters. This is added to the 3 years assigned to the preceeding aspect (Moon trines Jupiter)

I confess I'm completely lost, especially since Lilly also says (emphasis mine)

"
The difference is 7 degrees and 22 minutes; which if I proportion into time, and neither give yeers, because the Significators are in Common Signes, and not in Fixed ; or moneths, because the Signes doe signifie somewhat more; but doe proportion a meane between both: the time limited in this way of Judicature, will amount to about 3 yeers and 3 quarters 3 3/4 years) from the time of asking the Question, ere the malevolent Opposition of the Moon to Mars shall take effect:

But in regard his quere was generall, **** I might have allowed for every degree 1 yeer: **** After, or about which time, he was in severall actions both dangerous to hisPerson and Fortune; and since that time, till the time of publishing hereof, he hath had his Intervals of good and 111, but is now under the frowne of
Fortune, &c.
"

ok, so I don't understand Lilly's timing scheme after all, though I did grasp the "fixed sign = years' etc bit.

And I generally don't understand how to time perfecting aspects (and the events they precipitate) in Horary charts.


Lilly uses his judgement on this one. Moon and Mars are both in Mutable (Common) Signs, and both in Succedent houses. So he can't allow years for this aspect, on the other hand he feels that keeping to months, which might seem the more obvious, is keeping things over short. He therefore decides to use years and halve the period.

(... which I do proportion into time, and neither give years , because the significators are in Common Signs and not in fixed; or months because the Signs do signify somewhat more but I do proportion a mean between both....

The (arithmetic) mean is the most common average.

I think Lilly decides that 7.5 years is too long a period but 7.5 months is too short, so he halves the degrees to get 3.75 and takes that as years.

Remember, he's trying to give a time frame for aspects which will actually perfect very quickly in real time. The Moon has to travel no more than 7 degrees 20 minutes for both aspects to be perfected. As Jupiter and Mars can effectively be treated as stationary, during that 7.5 degree movement, that will be something like thirteen to fifteen hours (guesstimate). Clearly what he's talking about cannot possibly be completed in such a short time frame, so he's got to go by the symbolism of the chart and apply some Art to his interpretation.

Now I have known plenty of horaries that have worked out in real time, where the aspect is perfected in days, weeks or even months. But this isn't one of them and Lilly uses his skill to estimate a good estimate of the time frame.
 

RohanMenon

Masterful explanation Minderwiz

Thank You, I'm working through it line by line.

(Tangential question): Does the "5 degree range" to consider a planet effectively in the next house apply when using Whole Sign Houses (in other words, when using WSH, with Gemini Rising, if Sun is 29 Sagittarius is he in the 7th house or the 8th?) or only for quadrant houses (here Regiomontanus, but I've seen astrologers using Placidus do the same thing)
 

Minderwiz

RohanMenon said:
Thank You, I'm working through it line by line.

In that case when you come to the following

Minderwiz said:
Why take months, when Cardinal House and Cadent Sign could be taken as weeks? Lilly doesn't think that makes sense. The Jupiter trine suggests three years that are good and the Ascendant ruler with a long run in its Exaltation, with no makefic aspects - suggesting 26 weeks (six months) just doesn't fit with three good years.

Remember it should be Cardinal Sign and Cadent House. Switching between Hellenistic Terms and Modern Terms sometimes produces a derailment in thinking (I had previously been writing about Valens and had to switch back to modern, LOL)

RohanMenon said:
(Tangential question): Does the "5 degree range" to consider a planet effectively in the next house apply when using Whole Sign Houses (in other words, when using WSH, with Gemini Rising, if Sun is 29 Sagittarius is he in the 7th house or the 8th?) or only for quadrant houses (here Regiomontanus, but I've seen astrologers using Placidus do the same thing)

No, don't use the 5 degree range when using Whole Sign Houses.

This range is often attributed to Ptolemy and I suspect it comes from his use of quadrant houses in the length of life calculation (as many Hellenistic Astrologers did). It only makes sense in such a system, providing a means of dealing with planets just over the limit of the calculated cusp (Sign boundaries are not calculate in this sense, they are even 30 degree increments).
 

RohanMenon

I caught the sign/house switch

but I understood what you intended, so no worries. (I have to say I've never read horary timing explained so clearly. I'm glad it is recorded in this forum for future readers working through Lilly and/or wondering how timing in horary works.)

Thank You for the Whole Sign 5 degrees clarification. Since I'm using WSH for the Valens work through, looking at a friend's horoscope, I saw a planet at 29 degrees and so wondered. Very clear explanation. Appreciated.
 

RohanMenon

And now for the Part of Fortune

Lilly seems to use the formula ASC + Moon - Sun for both day and night. (Interesting, I'd have thought the separate day/night formulas would be in play in Lilly's time).

There is a sheet to assign a score to the calculated PoF (though it seems to missing minus signs in my edition) and a table to correlate PoF with the phase of the Moon.

Lilly doesn't really tell use (here) how the PoF is to be used.

Then follows a "more short method" to evaluate the same chart we examined in such detail. To me it looks more like a summary of findings rather than a "shorter method".


Lilly asks all beginners to *write down* their judgments at length and then "contract their opinions into a narrow compass"

And that's the end of judgment of the first chart.

Phew!

I think I learned more astrology in a given time than ever before in my life, certainly much more than reading many 'modern' astrology books, thanks to Lilly's exhaustive explanations, and Minderwiz's kindness in unsticking me whenever I got bogged down.

My sincere thanks to the spirit of Lilly, and to Minderwiz!

I now see why horary is reccomended to the beginning astrologer. In my mind modern authors do their readers a *huge* disservice by asking them to apply abstract psychological theories to explain the 'inner psyche' of querents.