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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeH View Post

For "Mme. Finet", DDD give other references for their c. 1800 date (footnote 3, p. 282): Hoffmann & Kroppenstedt, Wahrsagencarte 1972 no. 68; Hoffmann and Dietrich Tarot - Tarock - Tarocchi 1988 no. 105; and Depaulis 1989, nos. 100, 101, and 102.
One of those appears to be possibly the one reference the Cary collection gives :

Notes and References (Cary)
D. Hoffmann and E. Kroppenstedt 1972, pp. 140, 144, nos. 65, 68.

DDD
Hoffmann & Kroppenstedt, Wahrsagencarte 1972 no. 68;

Cary says. c.1840, so I presume the DDD of c.1800 is based on the others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huck View Post
As you wish ...



... from a Museum in Mainz, Germany. Das Buch Toth, published by the Baumgärtner Verlag, Leipzig 1793
found at:
http://eprints.rclis.org/17240/1/Ott...chsen_nach.pdf

Baumgärtner was only the publisher. There's some suspicion, that this production was related to Hisler, who occasionally cooperated with Etteilla.
Thanks Huck, the cards shown are different to the illustrations in the 1857 edition, it would be interesting to see how they correspond to the engravings inside the 1793 they are shown with. They are very similar to the German Deck at the BM (backs though are different). Would it be right to say that the engravings in the 1793 are probably the oldest and nearest fully extent of the Etteilla? (The examples we have of Etteilla's own being incomplete.) Is it basically a translation of Etteilla's theory and practice course?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw View Post
Thanks Huck, the cards shown are different to the illustrations in the 1857 edition, it would be interesting to see how they correspond to the engravings inside the 1793 they are shown with. They are very similar to the German Deck at the BM (backs though are different). Would it be right to say that the engravings in the 1793 are probably the oldest and nearest fully extent of the Etteilla? (The examples we have of Etteilla's own being incomplete.) Is it basically a translation of Etteilla's theory and practice course?
The titles are in German. Generally it's still a question, who the engraver of the deck was. DDD indicate early relations of Etteilla to Strassburg ... Srassburg should have been half German, half French in this time. Etteilla was early known in Germany, and visited meetings of interested circles here, I remember.
It's perhaps more plausible, that the first engraver of the deck type was German than French. It's even so, that a contemporary German engraver "Hisler" existed, but from both "Hislers" I don't know enough biographical material to confirm this suspicion. I think, that the Etteilla-Hisler had contact to Etteilla, when Etteilla likely commissioned the first deck. So Hisler isn't totally impossible as a solution.


In the case, that the engraver was German it's easily possible, that the engravings (beside the German writing) from Baumgärtner in 1793 were taken from the same plates as the original.

Btw. DDD has also pictures from the edition in 1789 (2-3), I don' know, if one can detect differences.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw View Post
Peytieux obtained the rights and stock for two Etteilla related items from Gueffier in February 1823 (it is recorded as an official Mutations des Fonds). By December his offices at 'passage du Cairo' are up for sale. Enticingly his later address is recorded as "chez Peytieux, galerie Delorme, n.11 et 13."

Probably coincidence? (I am thinking of the Type II Etteilla by 'Delorme' at the BnF.)


Source:



Peytieux - acquires rights to two Etteilla style products from Geuffier jeune, February 1823
December 1823 - his offices are advertised as for sale.
January 1824 - he changes his address to libraire (publisher/bookseller) galerie Delorme
September 1824 - there is another Mutations des Fonds between Gueffier jeune & Peytieux, including the Livre du Thot in four volumes & Du Dictionnaire synonymique du livre de Thot, as well as other titles (see below).

(I am not clear whether Gueffier jeune or Peytieux were involved in publishing reprints of some of these Etteilla titles (they were both printer/publishers), or just acquiring and selling remaining original stocks. My guess is where they are listed with original publishers/dates e.g., Amsterdam, 1772, it is original stock that is available from them; otherwise their own publication/reprint? Either way, last references I can find to either Gueffier jeune or Peytiex selling Etteilla material die out in 1827 )

Note: {BnF} Have an Etteilla Type II deck they attribute to a "Delorme", c. latter half 19th century?

So we seem to have two publishing networks early involved in publication and/or distribution of a range of Etteilla related books/cards in a major way:

Gueffier - Peytieux - (Delorme?)

Blocquel - Castiaux - Delarue

However, the Delorme is a Type II, associated with Lismon (Blocquel - Castiaux - Delarue)...

Note: the galerie Delorme, rue St. Honoure, was the address of several Libraire and other sellers of prints/antiquities, tailors, hatters, merchants -- so the Peytieux/Delorme connection could be a coincidence, false lead.

(I have been looking through some of the Peytieux publications from 1820 to 1890, unfortunately he was not one of those publishers, such as Blocquel - Castiaux, who included an 'other titles available from this Libraire' in his books.)

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________

Mutations des Fonds between Gueffier and Peytieux in 1824:



Source:

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeH View Post
1826. Pierre Mongie l’aine (the elder) publishes Etteilla’s deck from the original copper plates, altered to erase the astrological symbols in the corners. To most of the trumps, court cards and Aces, it adds new titles in cursive script, inside the picture frame, of a Masonic or Biblical flavor, such as “Hiram’s Masonry” for card 2 or “Solomon” for card 8. On card 1, instead of “Etteilla” and “Questionnant” it has “L’Homme qui consulte” both top and bottom (Kaplan vol. 2 p. 400f). There is also a book, The art of reading cards and tarots or French, Egyptian, Italian and German Cartomancy. The author, given as “Aldegonde Perenna, Polish sibyl,” is actually Gabrielle de Paban, cousin of editor and collaborator Collin de Plancy. In an introductory essay, de Plancy says that the 1200 pages of Etteilla’s two large volumes contain nothing but astrological fantasies; the present work, by contrast, is at least clear. Its section on “Egyptian tarots” was reprinted numerous times by Grimaud to accompany its reprints of Etteilla’s deck (DDD pp. 144-147). Its 1969 deck, which showed keywords in both English and French, offered an English translation of this booklet, 118 pp.
Here is an advert for the Plancy/Mongie from the 2nd edition of Colin de Plancy’s “Dictionaire Infernal”, 1826:

Quote:
L’ART DE TIRER LES CARTES ET LES TAROTS, ou Cartomancie Française, Égyptienne, Italienne et Allemande; moyen infaillible de dire la bon aventure, expliqué d’après les découvertes profondes des Egyptiens, des Bohémiens, des Sibylles et des Cabalistes célèbres de tous les pays; par Aldégonde Pérenna, sibylle polonaise; mis en ordre et publié par Collin de Plancy, auteur du Dictionnaire Infernal, un vol in-18, prix: 3 fr. et 3. fr. 50 c. franc de port. Le grand jeu de 78 cartes des tarots, gravés en taille-douce, et coloriés avec soin, enfermés dans un étui de carton, prix: 6 fr. En prenant le volume et le jeu ensemble, 7 fr. 50 c. et 8 fr. 50 c. franc de port. (L’on vend le volume et le jeu séparément.)
Translation:
THE ART OF PULLING THE CARDS AND TAROTS or Cartomancie French, Egyptian, Italian and German; surefire way to tell the good adventure, explained from the profound discoveries of the Egyptians, Bohemians, the Sibyls and famous Kabbalists of all countries; by Polish sybyl Aldégonde Pérenna; put in order and published by Collin Plancy, author of the Dictionnaire Infernal, a volume in-18, price: 3 fr. and 3 fr. 50 c. postage paid. A Game of 78 cards of tarot cards, intaglio carved and coloured with care, enclosed in a cardboard case, price: 6 fr. Taking the volume and game together, 7 fr. 50 c. and 8 fr. 50 c. postage paid. (The volume and the game are sold separately.)

In later books (e.g., Un Homme, par Mme Collin de Plancy (Marie d'Heures), 1832), the book and deck are only advertised as sold together, for 7fr.50c., not separately.

COLLIN DE PLANCY (Jacques-Albin-Simon Collin), was born in Plancy, near Arcis-sur-Aube, on January 28, 1793. His father Edme-Aubin Collin was a manufacturer of socks and his mother, Marie-Anne Danton, who was according to some the sister of the famous revolutionary Georges-Jacques Danton, who was executed a year after the birth of Jacques. However, any relationship to G.J. Danton has been disputed by others. He went to Paris in 1812 and worked there for various booksellers. c.1821, he opened a printing shop and bookstore, editing and publishing himself many books, many of which were blacklisted due to their anti-religious nature. Due to risky real estate speculation he was forced to close in 1826. He settled in Belgium after the revolution of 1830, where he founded the Revue de Bruxelles and the Société de propagation des bons livres. He returned to Paris in 1837, but two years later he was called to Holland to found La Haye a Société des Beaux-Arts. During their stay in the Netherlands he was reconciled with the Catholic faith and in 1841 mades public his conversion. Collin de Plancy returned to France and all his works henceforth received episcopal approval. In 1846, he founded Plancy Société de Saint-Victor pour la propagation des bons livres et la formation d'ouvriers chrétiens. After the dissolution of the latter in 1858, Collin de Plancy returned to Paris and ended his career as a general manager at Henri Plon.

According to the one source:
Collin de Plancy married c.1815, one of his cousins, Miss Marie Clotilde Paban, known in literature under the name of Mary D’heures. - A sister of the latter, Miss Gabrielle Paban, also published several books under various peudonyms, some of which were attributed to her cousin.

However, according to another, earlier source*:
Collin Dante de Plancy (Madam GABRIELLE PABAN) wife of the preceding, born in Lyon February 22, 1795, married in 1817.

*Biographie Nouvelle Des Contemporains : Coll - Dic, Volume 5, 1822

According to another, 'Gabrielle Paban' is another pseudonym of his wife 'Marie Clotilde Paban', which he also used as an alias for himself.

(Aldégonde Pérenna (Gabrielle Paban) was also the author of L'art de dire la bonne-aventure dans la main, ou La chiromancie des bohémiennes, for example, which seems to have been popular, published in at least five editions between 1818 & 1842.)

The BnF listing for the 1818 edition:

Type : texte imprimé, monographie
Auteur(s) : Perenna, Aldegonde (1793-18..)
Titre(s) : L'art de dire la bonne-aventure dans la main, ou La chiromancie des bohémiennes, suivie des horoscopes, ou le moyen de connaître sa destinée par les constellations de la naissance ; comme aussi de l'art de tirer les cartes, et de l'explication des songes [Texte imprimé]. Ouvrage combiné sur les livres qui nous restent des plus fameux devins, sorciers et astrologues ; par Gabrielle Pérenna, de Salon, sibylle provençale, de la lignée de Nostradamus
Publication : Paris : Lerouge, 1818
Description matérielle : In-18, 190 p., frontisp. et pl. gr.
Titre alternatif : La chiromancie des bohémiennes


__________________________________________________ ______________

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw View Post
Here is an advert for the Plancy/Mongie from the 2nd edition of Colin de Plancy’s “Dictionaire Infernal”, 1826:



Translation:
THE ART OF PULLING THE CARDS AND TAROTS or Cartomancie French, Egyptian, Italian and German; surefire way to tell the good adventure, explained from the profound discoveries of the Egyptians, Bohemians, the Sibyls and famous Kabbalists of all countries; by Polish sybyl Aldégonde Pérenna; put in order and published by Collin Plancy, author of the Dictionnaire Infernal, a volume in-18, price: 3 fr. and 3 fr. 50 c. postage paid. A Game of 78 cards of tarot cards, intaglio carved and coloured with care, enclosed in a cardboard case, price: 6 fr. Taking the volume and game together, 7 fr. 50 c. and 8 fr. 50 c. postage paid. (The volume and the game are sold separately.)
Note: A pdf copy of L’ART DE TIRER LES CARTES ET LES TAROTS by Aldégonde Pérenna, is available free at Google Books:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...ban%22&f=false

Aldégonde Pérenna, Polish Sybyl is just one of the pseudonyms of Gabrielle Paban (b.1793), the sister of Mme. Collin de Plancy; others include Gabrielle Salon and Gabrielle Radegonde Provencal Sibyl of the line of Nostradamus.
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Re: my post (3):
http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.p...10&postcount=3

On thread here:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread...ht=petit+dames
Quote:
1807. “Petit Oracle des Dames” deck, by the veuve (widow) Gueffier, of 42 cards. The designs are partly from a 66 card fortune-telling pack of about 1790 and partly from Etteilla’s tarot pack (DDD p. 143). It had an 82 p. book of instructions, per Kaplan (vol 1 p. 157).



Kaplan dates it to 1815 and has pictures. Some of Etteilla’s designs for trumps are here associated with suit cards, small images of which are put in the left bottom corners.

A Petit Oracle des Dames (Gueffier) is listed as early as 1802*, here:

Journal typographique et bibliographique, p.334


Re: the 66 card deck, circa. 1790

There is a 66 card deck, Jeu divinatoire révolutionnaire, 1791, at the BnF, several of the cards have similarities to some of the Petit oracles des dames tableaux:

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv...planchecontact

See also and compare the late 18th century anonymous at the British Museum, for example:







For full set see here:

http://www.britishmuseum.org/researc...=eteila&page=1

Note the miss-spelling eteila -- as with the Finet & Robert.

(There are four cards outside the 32 ordinary suits entitled "consultant Eteila" and "consultant pour la reussite Eteila". It is too small for me to make out clearly, but I think on 2, 3, 14 & 25 - Jupiter, Juno, the one with the ship and the one with the star like image.)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw View Post

Re: the 66 card deck, circa. 1790

There is a 66 card deck, Jeu divinatoire révolutionnaire, 1791, at the BnF, several of the cards have similarities to some of the Petit oracles des dames tableaux:

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv...planchecontact

See also and compare the late 18th century anonymous at the British Museum
I suspect the BM late 18th century anonymous could very well be a Mme. Finet, given the relationship between it and the 1791 BnF.

Found an advert for a late 18th century Mme. Finet Oracle des Dames in a 1898 vendors catalogue:



http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt...Finet%20Eteila

Below is from the The Rothschild Collection: Waddesdon Manor – Printed Board Games Collection, August 2009, re: Finet

Quote:
Nouvelle Eteila, ou le petit Nécromancien, Le petit oracle des dames
Finet (French, active Circa 1805?)

Divinatory card game with standard piquet pack and four extra cards derived
from the Tarot of Etteilla (Jean-Baptiste Alliette). The sheet is divided into
36 rectangles arranged in rows with smaller reserves for the suits on the
right-hand side. At lower right, there is a blank reserve for the shop name to
be written in. The image is etched and hand-coloured, the text is engraved.

Etteilla was the pseudonym of Jean-Baptiste Alliette (1738 – 1791), a French
occultist who was the first to popularise tarot divination to a wide audience.
This is a sheet of fortune telling cards using some of the imagery devised by
Etteilla. The pack here is a standard French piquet pack of 32 cards Ace,
King, Queen, Jack, 10, 9, 8, 7, of the usual four French suits but with four
extra Ettellia cards. Decker, Depaulis and Dummett (1996) refer to a 36 card
pack produced by Madame Finet in about 1800 under the title “le Petit
Oracle des Dames”, which is the same game. Depaulis (correspondence 18
June 2009) now dates the game slightly later, circa 1810, and notes that there
are suit signs. The game was included in the exhibition of 1989 “Les cartes
de la Révolution”, with the earlier date. Depaulis notes that the game draws
on another, earlier and somewhat mysterious set of cards, which he called
“Jeu politico-divinatoire” (n° 99 in the 1989 “Les cartes de la Révolution”
catalogue), which is in the BnF and bears the APR (“Avec Privilège du Roi”)
imprint so it must date from around 1790. A very similar game was produced
circa 1810 by Robert, see Decker, Depaulis and Dummett (1996). There are
copies of Mme Finet’s sheet in the Cary collection of playing cards (Yale
University Library). They are catalogued as FRA 194 and FRA sheet 176. I
am grateful to Thierry Depaulis for this information.

Ronald Decker,Thierry Depaulis and Michael Dummett,’’A Wicked
Pack of Cards: The Origins of the Occult Tarot’’, New York, 1996; p. 143;
discusses another copy of the game.

Thierry Depaulis, ‘‘Les cartes de la Révolution: cartes à jouer et
propagande’’, Issy-les-Moulineaux, 1989; n°100; discusses another copy of
the game.

William B. Keller, ‘‘A catalogue of the Cary collection of playing cards in
the Yale University Library’’, New Haven, 1981; discusses another copy of
the game.

Phillippa Plock

The Rothschild Collection
Waddesdon Manor – Printed Board Games Collection, August 2009
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Very nice research, Kwaw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw View Post
Note: A pdf copy of L’ART DE TIRER LES CARTES ET LES TAROTS by Aldégonde Pérenna, is available free at Google Books:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...ban%22&f=false

Aldégonde Pérenna, Polish Sybyl is just one of the pseudonyms of Gabrielle Paban (b.1793), the sister of Mme. Collin de Plancy; others include Gabrielle Salon and Gabrielle Radegonde Provencal Sibyl of the line of Nostradamus.
This link answers one of my questions. The c. 1890 Grimaud Grand Etteilla I LWB (of which I have a photocopy) is essentially a reprint of part of this book, the part on the tarot, p. 41ff. In the introduction, some of the material has been rearranged, but that's all. The language is the same. Also, the 1969 English-language LWB for the Grimaud Grand Etteilla I (with keywords in English and French) is a translation of the c. 1890, precisely. The LWB for the current Grimaud (with many new keywords on the cards), while it has the same titles (Order of Mopses, etc.) and some of the same interpretations, also has different ones, and the language has been condensed.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw View Post
I suspect the BM late 18th century anonymous could very well be a Mme. Finet, given the relationship between it and the 1791 BnF.

Found an advert for a late 18th century Mme. Finet Oracle des Dames in a 1898 vendors catalogue:



http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt...Finet%20Eteila
I think, that Mme Finet is not of importance ... one finds not much to her.



The text is from ...
https://books.google.de/books?id=KW4...rif5gC&f=false
page 115

The date should be "30 Nivose 8", an 8 stands for the8th year of the revolution, and the date should result to 19th of January 1800.

The text notes, that one gets the product from the author: "chez l'auteur". The address is "rue de Coq-Heron, Maison de France".

Another text ...

... is from "Nivose an. 7" and should be from Dec/Jan 1798/1799.

That's about another production, but the address "rue de Coq-Heron, Maison de la France" repeats together with the name of an author, who is well known for the production of attractive picture collections in combination with expensive book productions: "Grasset Saint-Sauveur" = Jacques Grasset Saint-Sauveur
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacque..._Saint-Sauveur

He had cooperating engravers, and likely also very much persons, who helped in the distribution of his productions. Likely also Madame Finet. We cannot determine, if he himself engraved the deck, but at least he should have had a state as producer or commissioner.

DDD noted the author in a footnote, but not in relation to the Petit Oracle:


p. 96 and in the footnote lists.

Actually I don't know, what this book "Le petit Escamoteur" contains (29 or 40 copperplate engravings + text, but what?) ... I don't get a clear description or a text. Why were DDD interested in the text? Sure, "Escamoteur" was a name for the Magician in the Epinal Tarot.

There was a text "Le petit Albert" (c. 1702)...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petit_Albert
I don't know, if this plays a role.
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Huck wrote,
Quote:
I think, that Mme Finet is not of importance ... one finds not much to her.
She is important at least in the way that Julia Orsini is important: an established name in the field, probably a pseudonym (just as "Julia Orsini" is certainly one). Pseudonyms were important, as you never knew when the reaction might set in, and the authors of such books be put on the "wanted" lists. Also, fortune-tellers were considered mostly women for women. It is also of interest who the real author is.
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