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Etteilla Timeline and Etteilla card Variants - background

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kwaw  kwaw is offline
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Here are the four 'Eteila' cards from the Finet:

Card 2 for the male consultant
Card 25 for the female consultant
Card 3 for the (? pour la rend ?), something opposite to success? or the reader's significator? or that renders to (serves?) the consultant
Card 12 for the success of the consulatant

Top   #381
Huck  Huck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw View Post
Correspondence from Thierry Depaulis (24th December, 2015)

quote:

Actually there are three (!) so-called 'Petit Etteilla'…

- 1) Etteilla's own 'Petit Etteilla', 33 cards (i.e. a 'piquet' pack + 1 card for 'Consultant', first edition 1791 (see Wicked Pack, p. 96 and pl. 5); these cards were reprinted many times during the 19th and the 20th centuries (notably by Grimaud), under this title ('Petit Etteilla'); a mere copy (or a re-issue?) of these cards appeared around 1797 under the name and signature of our dear friend "le citoyen Saint-Sauveur" (see Cary Coll., FRA 191; Les cartes de la Révolution 1989, n° 98)

- 2) 'Petit oracle des dames / Petit Etteilla' (both titles), later with "ou récréation du curieux" added, 42 cards, most double-headed, also issued by Grasset de Saint-Sauveur, "A Paris, Chez l'Auteur, rue Nicaise Nr. 513. An cinquième / 1797", re-issued as 'Petit oracle des dames, ou récréation du curieux' in 1799 ("A Paris, Chez l'Auteur, rue Coq-Héron, Maison de France ; Deroy, libraire, rue Hautefeuille, n° 34, an VIII de la Rép. fr. [1799-1800]"); and reprinted later under the same or variant titles, notably by Gueffier, his widow and his son

- 3) 'Nouvel Eteila [sic], ou le Petit nécromancien', also as 'Le Petit oracle des dames', 36 cards, single-headed, engraving and style rather late 18th C, but all copies known only by Robert (c.1820) and Mme Finet (c.1824).

end quote

Re: the c.1797 Saint-Sauveur copy/re-issue of the Petit Etteilla, possibly this is the 'jeu d'Etteilla' that was advertised with the 1796 L'Art de Tirer des Cartes published by Deroy?

The catalogue of donations to the BnF by Paul Marteau includes a 'Jeu d’ “Etteilla ou le Questionnaire”, de 32 cartes. (End of 18th century. Reissued by Grimaud, end of 19th century.)

La carte à jouer : donation faite à la Bibliothèque nationale par Monsieur Paul Marteau, maître cartier, juin 1966, No. 453
For:
"Re: the c.1797 Saint-Sauveur copy/re-issue of the Petit Etteilla, possibly this is the 'jeu d'Etteilla' that was advertised with the 1796 L'Art de Tirer des Cartes published by Deroy?"

### I'd pointed earlier to this BM-deck ...
http://www.britishmuseum.org/researc...tteilla&page=1
... which is not presented by pictures. BM gives an Etteilla 33-cards deck (32 of 33), made by the producer "St Sauveur" and given to "circa 1800" or "1789-1804". The single questioneur card is given with
"The pack has one extra card with "No. 1 Etteilla ou le Questionant" which bears the address "Chez le Cen. (citoyen) St Sauveur, Rue Nicaise...a Paris"."

According other information St Sauveur lived only till 1797 in the rue Nicaise.
Ergo: The deck was made, before St Sauveur moved to rue Coq-Heron.

Likely you speak of this in 1796 (?) ...

https://books.google.de/books?id=8Mp...0Deroy&f=false

There is no clear indication, that it is a card deck with book.

For Depaulis:
"- 2) 'Petit oracle des dames / Petit Etteilla' (both titles), later with "ou récréation du curieux" added, 42 cards, most double-headed, also issued by Grasset de Saint-Sauveur, "A Paris, Chez l'Auteur, rue Nicaise Nr. 513. An cinquième / 1797", re-issued as 'Petit oracle des dames, ou récréation du curieux' in 1799 ("A Paris, Chez l'Auteur, rue Coq-Héron, Maison de France ; Deroy, libraire, rue Hautefeuille, n° 34, an VIII de la Rép. fr. [1799-1800]"); and reprinted later under the same or variant titles, notably by Gueffier, his widow and his son"

... and earlier ...

"Petit oracle des dames / Petit Etteilla, jeu de 42 cartes, avec livret Tableaux mobiles des jeux de fortune, ou l'Art de lire dans l'avenir avec sûreté par le rapprochement des événemens qui démontrent sans réplique l'art chronomancique. A Paris, Chez l'Auteur, rue Nicaise Nr. 513. An cinquième / 1797. "

### There's still no indication, who wrote this and where it was published.

***********

Added:
I found an announcement in December 1796, which has it, that the cards accompanied the book.





... oops, it was also in the other "avec le jeu de cartes" ... :-)
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***************"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huck View Post

... oops, it was also in the other "avec le jeu de cartes" ... :-)
Yes, it was. I wrote above 'jeu d'Etteilla', which I seem to remember but my memory must be playing tricks on me because the references/links I gave were actually 'avec jeu de cartes' (as in the link I gave earlier*, and you repeat above), so it is "jeu de cartes" not 'jeu d'Etteilla' as I later misspoke. But the point remains, it was a book with a set of cards. and it was possibly the St. Sauveur reissue/copy of the petit Etteilla, as that which is at the BM, that accompanied the book published by Deroy in latter quarter of 1796, and re-issued in 1798.

The 1797 'Petit oracle des dames / Petit Etteilla' (later called 'Petit oracle des dames, ou récréation du curieux") was by Saint-Sauveur, and published by Deroy, and available from both, as I thought I had previously mentioned, but perhaps not.

1796 - l'Art de tirer de cartes - published by Deroy, 'avec jeu de cartes'.

c.1796/97 - The Petit Etteilla copy/reissue (of the 1791 Etteilla) by St.Sauveur (possibly the 'game of cards' that came with the Deroy?). Later available through Gueffier & then Peytieux (and various other sources throughout the 19th century and later).

1797 - 'Petit oracle des dames / Petit Etteilla' (later called 'Petit oracle des dames, ou récréation du curieux") by Saint-Sauveur, and published by Deroy, later available from Morin et Lenoir (1800), and then from Gueffier (from 1801), and Peytieux (from 1823/24), and various other sources throughout the 19th century and later.

Then there are the possibly c.late 18th century (??) to c.1820/24 Robert/Finet type, and the c.1820 Geographic that maybe related in one way or another, directy or indirectly, with Saint-Sauveur, somewhat rare and thus presumably not so popular, and of which we are short of information. Though we can only date them for definite by terminus c.1820, perhaps they represent earlier, unsuccessful types? And then there is also the 1802 'Petit Necromancien', perhaps (we suspect via addresses) also connected with Saint-Sauveur, and which may or may not be related to the Robert/Finet (suggested by title, but being wary of relying to much on nomenclature alone). Here we are prone to speculation unbound by too little information.

kwaw

* http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.p...&postcount=370
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Yes, it's difficult to keep an overview this way.

The different themes should be listed in a time-line outside of this thread (so that one find it quickly) together with copies of the relevant text passages (+ link) found elsewhere.

I agree, that it is plausible, that Sauveur made already the production of 1796.

**********

"D'Alby" might have been a family name of the region of Grenoble ... there's a location ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alby-sur-Ch%C3%A9ran
... Alby-sur-Chéran, 90 km North-East to Grenoble (not much more distance than the local French "Montferrat", where the mayor of Grenoble, Barral (relative to Guitnard), got his title Marquis of Montferrat from).

1788 (Albert d'Alby) is close to c. 1790, when (with some chance) in Grenoble the 66-cards deck possibly was produced. Maybe the region had some special cartomancy culture? Possibly cause of local nearness to Italy?
Grenoble was the earliest in France with a sort of pre-revolution in 1788, so somehow they were (possibly) "very modern".
De la Salette made the contact of Etteilla to Grenoble 1788, but possibly earlier cause of personal interest in the cartomancy theme (perhaps he read his book? perhaps he had an older interest in Tarot, Grenoble might have been a region, which played Tarot much, relative close to Lyon)?

The question is, if St.Sauveur was already part of the cartomancy scene before 1796. It's not necessary, but this should have a greater chance than for everybody else. Either to the Grenoble clan, or to the cycle of Etteilla.
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Kwaw wrote,
Quote:
Card 3 for the (? pour la rend ?), something opposite to success? or the reader's significator? or that renders to (serves?) the consultant
Not "rend", because there is an accent acute on the e. Could it be "pour réal.", short for "pour réalizer", i.e. what is needed to accomplish the goal?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huck View Post
The question is, if St.Sauveur was already part of the cartomancy scene before 1796. It's not necessary, but this should have a greater chance than for everybody else. Either to the Grenoble clan, or to the cycle of Etteilla.
Sauveur participated in a project 1784-1788, "Costumes Civils actuels de tous les Peuples connus." This project was dedicated to "Charles-Eugene-Gabriel Delacroix, Maréchal de Castries, Comte d'Alais, premier Baron des Etats du Languedoc, Ministre d'Etat" ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charle...el_de_La_Croix
... who had the function "Secretary of State of the Navy" (secrétaire d'État à la marine) from 1780-1787 (a very high position, followers of him are presented in the wiki-biography of ministre l'linterieure Guignard as ministre colleagues).

The family Delacroix came from Montpellier (as the family of Grasset Saint Sauveur).

The related project ...
http://gallica.bnf.fr/services/engin...#resultat-id-4
... was very expensive, 4 big books with many high-quality pictures presenting persons of 4 continents (Europe, Asia, Africa, America).
It makes logic to assume, that the navy sponsored the product. How should the relative young Sauveur get descriptions of foreign people and the necessary information about them? Good connections to the French navy would explain that.

The "ministre de la guerre", card 4 in the 66-cards-deck beside card 3, "ministre l'interieure", should have been Jean-Frédéric de La Tour du Pin Gouvernet ...
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-F..._Pin_Gouvernet
... another man from Grenoble.
"Il est ministre de la Guerre du 4 août 1789 au 16 novembre 1790", roughly the same time, when Guignard had been "ministre l'interieure".

The "ministre des finances" (card 54 in the deck) should be naturally Jacques Necker, the most important French politician in the period. He's called a friend of Delacroix, the man, to whom the book project was dedicated.

So there is a closer connection given between the young Sauveur and the circle of "important men" in Grenoble. It wasn't very difficult to find.

At the project participated beside two graveurs, an editor and a redacteur also Claude-Louis Desrais as dessinateur (illustrator) ... who likely developed the motifs.


http://book-graphics.blogspot.de/201...-francais.html
(many pictures of another work, in which Desrais participated)
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Re: Gueffier possibly acquiring some rights after the death of Deroy, note that Deroy died in August 1801, Gueffier is advertising in April of 1801, i.e., before the death of Deroy.

The 1806 Petit Etteilla at the BM has the names and addresses not only of Gueffier, but also that of Croisey:

http://www.britishmuseum.org/researc...tteilla&page=1

As does their other Gueffier/Croisey PE:

http://www.britishmuseum.org/researc...tteilla&page=1

The H. Pussey GE at the BM has printed on the booklet: "Cartes A Jouer, H. Pussey, 20, Rue de la Banque, Paris". Lettered on the back of the booklet "Paris - Impr. Paul Dupont" and "L. et M. Paris, 74, Rue Saint-Maur."

http://www.britishmuseum.org/researc...tteilla&page=1

L. et M. are "Lequart et Mignot" (the "former makers" of the 1890 Grimaud GE) (MM. Lequart et Mignot dans leur usine, 74 et 78, rue Saint-Maur-Popincourt, Paris.)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw View Post
Re: Gueffier possibly acquiring some rights after the death of Deroy, note that Deroy died in August 1801, Gueffier is advertising in April of 1801, i.e., before the death of Deroy.
Maybe Deroy was sick and saw death approaching. Perhaps he sold some rights before, cause he had nobody, who would proceed the business.
btw. I'm not sure, that Bernard Andrès had sure evidence, that Grasset Saint-Sauveur had bad financial already before he started his theatre enterprise.

Interesting special cards and alternative deck structure (32 + 3)


http://www.britishmuseum.org/researc...jectid=3097947
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A revised timeline and new thread, "Etteilla and Variants Timeline II" starts at http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=4570864. However people responding to particular recent items on the current thread should feel free to respond here.
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