Is the Tarot Pre-Christian?

[The crowned one]

The art of the 1450-90's and the cards in this period were hand painted art, are influenced strongly by Greek classic's... pre Christian influence particularly Greek would show up or variations of it, I suspect, given the popularity of the subject and the influence it had on the times and culture. To some degree you might say the rediscovery of lost Greek classics kick started the Renaissance. Christian idea's were attached to the Greek art.

Tarot is not, in my opinion even close to being pre Christian but it has plenty of pre Christian iconology in many decks. But then again we were wearing hats and shoes before Jesus and those are depicted in the cards so where do you draw the line? I think many good scholars and historians have firmly established "tarot" as much much later then 44ce (Acts 11:25-26)

To me tarot is not even close to pre Christian to answer your title question.

[Bernice]

Rosanne:[/b] But if KariRoad would like to elaborate, I would be more than happy to be proved wrong.

New information about the origins of the tarot trumps would be very welcome indeed. If it were some purely pagan source as KariRoad suggests, it would be thrice welcome!

Bee

[Huck]

Tarot started (at least to our eyes) before 1425 or little before with 16 Greek/Roman gods as content for the trumps. Well, one should call this Pre-Christian content (Michelino deck) - each single motif.

Later appeared the Boiardo Tarocchi poem and the Sola-Busca Tarocchi ... one had famous men/women as trumps and the others mostly Roman heroes ... most of them, if not all, are pre-Christian figures.

Nonetheless all three had been 15th century productions. It was an essential part of the renaissance to reflect the antique world before Christ (otherwise renaissance wouldn't have been called renaissance).

[The crowned one]

deleted post.

[Bernice]

So what we have in essence, is that a development of concepts through different time(s) & location(s) including pre-christian and pagan thought 'solidified' into a card deck in the renaissance (?). Can't disagree with this.

But the post which says, "A friend told me how the ancient Tarot was much older than paper playing cards, which is what historians compare Tarot to." implies that a conceptual sequence of 22 'ideas &/or symbols' travelled unscathed through hundreds (or maybe thousands) of years before the Visconti's produced the painted trump cards. I do disagree with this.


Bee

eta: http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.p...45&postcount=3

[Rosanne]

I agree with you Huck.
Why do you think that Roman Heroes, Famous Men and Women and Greek Gods were used for this game- when there was a wealth of Christian figures and Christian Legends to utilise?
I understand there was the rediscovery of ancient culture (ie Greek)- but for a game why not use what was at hand in a purely Christian sense?
Could it be that it was not allowed or acceptable- that it might be seen as 'unholy or sinful' for a game?
It is interesting that the fresco called Good and Bad Government has all the elements of Tarot, but because there was this ordinance of what was sacred and what was secular- there does not appear a recognisable Catholic influence in the allegory. It is a pronounced secular work of Good Government with Virtues and Vices and an illusion to the divine with the Sun- and an absence of the religious community altogether. One would think that, as it has tyranny as a devil like figure, the effect of Good Government would have some distinct religious content.
It is painted in a government building and is a political allegory.
The models are not religious or sacred.
But there are angels.
~Rosanne

[euripides]

Originally Posted by Bernice

But the post which says, "A friend told me how the ancient Tarot was much older than paper playing cards, which is what historians compare Tarot to." implies that a conceptual sequence of 22 'ideas &/or symbols' travelled unscathed through hundreds (or maybe thousands) of years before the Visconti's produced the painted trump cards. I do disagree with this.

Is it preferred that all posts stick closely to the OP's exact question? If so that's fine, I'll start a fresh thread. (I'm used to threads "taking the ball and running" with the idea rather loosely).

I agree that there is no evidence of a sequence of symbols matching that of the tarot; however I think we may well find some that aren't far removed.

[Huck]

Originally Posted by Rosanne

I agree with you Huck.
Why do you think that Roman Heroes, Famous Men and Women and Greek Gods were used for this game- when there was a wealth of Christian figures and Christian Legends to utilise?

Michelino deck, Boiardo Tarocchi poem and Sola Busca Tarocchi are facts of Tarot history in 15th century, one can't discuss them away.

Christian figures appear in the so-called standard Tarot, they are also present. Naturally all decks somehow mirror their "own specific time", and with that I mean not "15th century" generally, but more precise dates.

Sola Busca would have been very unlikely for 1450 (no copperplate engraving, very different in sexual behavior) or for 1497 (time of prohibition in Florence and Ferrara) for instance. Boiardo Tarocchi (likely 1487, "women are better than men") reflects a position, which became popular in Ferrara ca. 1485, not before.
Filippo Maria had been "very modern", so it was possible to create the Michelino deck c. 1425, but Filippo Maria was attacked publicly in this time by San Bernardino. And the Michelino deck meets the relative new enthusiasm about the import of Greek manuscripts, likely not accidently, but by by causal relation.

I understand there was the rediscovery of ancient culture (ie Greek)- but for a game why not use what was at hand in a purely Christian sense?
Could it be that it was not allowed or acceptable- that it might be seen as 'unholy or sinful' for a game?

We don't know all and everything about playing cards in 15th century. There might have been also games with Saints. In the Rosselli inventory from 1528 there was printing material for a game with 12 apostles, as far I remember. Ringmann used figures on cards to teach Latin grammar 1509. Murner made cards to teach logic (1507) and cards, which show heraldic (1502). In Strassburg and Mainz printers used playing cards for divination (1505) in the popular form of lot books.

In the new Italian book "Castello di Tarocchi" Andrea Vitali shows some cards, which were made with woodcuts from the Schedel'sche Weltchronik 1493.

... .-) ... Chess figures (as paintings or engravings) also had a specific iconography.

It's simply a creative movement, from which we have only a limited perspective. We can only describe that, what is real to us, and we know, that a lot of the process might be lost.

Well ... I feel sure, that also our reduced perspective includes a mirror of accompanying prohibitive tendencies in Italian 15th century society, which were moved by the changing moods of the time and not a quiet constant factor.

[Huck]

... :-) ... occasionally, when I write a post and it becomes a little complicated, I observe, that it is a "silence-creator" ...

This wasn't intended.

The situation is so:
Here, in this part of the forum, and also outside of this forum, a few persons have exchanged a lot of emails, forum-posts, other communications, about the topic "tarot history", mainly in 15th century.

This happened in 2003-2010 and there had been 10.000's of communication processes. Naturally the connected persons (actually only a handful of persons, who stayed all the time) developed somehow an own "language" and also another way to talk about the topic. One has to consider, that there was incredible advance in the research by the new possibilities of internet - and this was used by the few persons.

When now outsiders hear our talking, they are - with some right - occasionally confused. Cause that, what we present, is somehow an "ocean of new information" and it's easy to lose the overview.

Maybe there is the lurker wisdom, that "if things become too complicated, stay silent". Let the others talk. "Learn by observation".
This doesn't work always.

You have to ask, if something isn't understood. We don't bite (usually). We don't eat small children.
You may look stupid, if you ask. But you may stay not informed, when you ask not, and that's worse.
It's not, that we assume, that you're generally stupid, it's just, that the topic can be rather specific, and it's not generally expected, that everybody has every information, especially not in this special case of communication, where some few people spend a lot of more energy and time to study the topic than others.

... :-) ...

[The crowned one]

Thanks for the general directed kind words Huck, I am comfortable, just have nothing to add.