Aeclectic Tarot
Tarot Cards & Reviews Tarot Card Meanings Tarot Books Free Tarot Readings Forum Community What's New

  Aeclectic Tarot Forum > Tarot Special Interest > Tarot History & Development

Welcome to the Aeclectic Tarot Forum!

We are the oldest and largest Tarot forum community on the Internet. If you have any questions about any aspect of Tarot or using your Tarot cards, or you just want to connect with other Tarot lovers, you've found the right place!

Registering your account is completely free, and allows you to post your thoughts, share readings, search, save threads, view extra boards and more.


  post a reply
 
Thread Tools
Huck 
Citizen
 
Join Date: 02 Jul 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,682
Petit Oracles des Dames, c. 1807


This refers to the discussion at ...
http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=169991&page=12
... further information available in the following posts.





__________________
Huck

"getting it home to the writing desk"

Last edited by Huck; 16-02-2012 at 04:31.
Huck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2012 Need answers now? Get 50% off your first live Tarot session!     Top   #1
Huck 
Citizen
 
Join Date: 02 Jul 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,682




__________________
Huck

"getting it home to the writing desk"
Huck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2012 Need answers now? Get 50% off your first live Tarot session!     Top   #2
kwaw 
Citizen
 
kwaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: 29 Dec 2003
Location: Nr. Ephesus, Turkey
Posts: 5,392

Some information from the timeline thread and link to the LWB:

1807. “Petit Oracle des Dames” deck, by the veuve (widow) Gueffier, of 42 cards. The designs are partly from a 66 card fortune-telling pack of about 1790 and partly from Etteilla’s tarot pack (DDD p. 143). It had an 82 p. book of instructions, per Kaplan (vol 1 p. 157).



Kaplan dates it to 1815 and has pictures. Some of Etteilla’s designs for trumps are here associated with suit cards, small images of which are put in the left bottom corners.

A Petit Oracle des Dames (Gueffier) is listed as early as 1802*, here:

Journal typographique et bibliographique, p.334

*Date changed from 1797 - with thanks to Coredill for the correction.



__________________
"I am a diviner, but a poor one."

Last edited by kwaw; 10-02-2012 at 23:26.
kwaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2012 Need answers now? Get 50% off your first live Tarot session!     Top   #3
Le Fanu 
Citizen
 
Le Fanu's Avatar
 
Join Date: 10 Feb 2008
Location: Somewhere Spooky
Posts: 17,173

There's also this thread...
Le Fanu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2012 Need answers now? Get 50% off your first live Tarot session!     Top   #4
Cerulean 
Citizen
 
Cerulean's Avatar
 
Join Date: 26 Apr 2002
Location: Calif., USA
Posts: 9,341
Check pictures in III-4...Petit Oracle des Dames


http://www-bsg.univ-paris1.fr/la_res...eu/horsjeu.htm

The pictures belong to the University, but they show some images and cite the cartomancy pack of "Alliette" -- the 1807 pack of Petit Oracle des Dames.

Hope that adds to the 'discovery'...although some pretty samples of divination as well.

Cerulean



__________________
Still, cerulean surges...
where, as sunset lingers
Eve with golden fingers...

Hector A. Stuart
South Sea Dreamer, 1886
Cerulean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2012 Need answers now? Get 50% off your first live Tarot session!     Top   #5
Huck 
Citizen
 
Join Date: 02 Jul 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,682

hi, Mari

well, this is in dramatic manner different to the version we've in the museum. If Jupiter had been really Nr. 2 (I can't judge, what this 4-pictures-compositions are; decorations of a box or cards), then this deck from ...
http://www-bsg.univ-paris1.fr/la_res...eu/horsjeu.htm
had a different system.
But Stephen checked the Museum version with the online text. It seemed to have been identical, as I understood it.
So we have to control this. .... I checked it, at least till Nr. 30. Stephen was right, this seems to be the description of the deck.The information to the text states:

[quote]Title : Le petit oracle des dames, ou Récréation du curieux... / (par Alliette)
Author : Alliette (17..-18..? ; cartomancien)
Publisher : impr. de Ducessois (Paris)
Date of publication : 1770-1820
Type : monographie imprimée
Language : French
Format : 82 p. ; in-32
Format : application/pdf
Copyright : domaine public
Identifier : ark:/12148/bpt6k62270d
Source : Bibliothèque nationale de France, département Philosophie, histoire, sciences de l'homme, R-42846
Relation : http://catalogue.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/cb30012112b
Provenance : bnf.fr

... is not directly confirming the date 1807.

Alexander (Museum) gave the information:
WWPCM02462
"Grimaud" (France)
deck No.394 132 "Le Petit Oracle des Dames", 1997
reprint of deck No.588

I don't know, what "deck No.588" is referring to. It's a remake, I stated this.

************

http://www.muenzgalerie.de/kataloge/...arten_2007.pdf
... confirms, that the number "W88" refers to a reprint 1991 of a Fortunetelling deck made in 1807 Nr. 588 is likely an older catalog). An example picture (Magician/Fool, 21) confirms, that this a reprint of the same deck.
At Page 44. So it is at least a general assumption, that the reprinted version is from 1807.

I think, the playing card traders often have the better information than the libraries. But naturally this might be wrong in this specific case.



__________________
Huck

"getting it home to the writing desk"

Last edited by Huck; 10-02-2012 at 17:44.
Huck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2012 Need answers now? Get 50% off your first live Tarot session!     Top   #6
Huck 
Citizen
 
Join Date: 02 Jul 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,682

To the same question:

DDD in a footnote 5 to pages 143-144 (which contain the few information, that is given to the theme of the Petit Oracle des Dames) note:

"Jupiter and Juno serve as "Protector" (No. 2) and Protectress (No. 3), as they already had in the Petit Oracle des Dames."
This information is given in the context of the year 1810 as part of the description of "the nouvel Etteilla or Petit Nécromancien produced by Robert, another Parisien publisher".
Then they add to this deck, which has only 36 cards ... "Only eight of Etteilla's figures were used, however, including Justice (here No. 4), Prudence No. 14) and Death (No. 36)."

And then comes the Footnote 5.

I don't know, what I shall think of it. It sounds, as if they didn't know the version, which is discussed here, but they know definitely a version, where Jupiter is 2 (as it is given by your library link).

As it seems, the version, which they possibly didn't know, had appeared as a reprint in 1991 and 1997. The Wicked Pack of cards appeared 1996.



__________________
Huck

"getting it home to the writing desk"
Huck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2012 Need answers now? Get 50% off your first live Tarot session!     Top   #7
Huck 
Citizen
 
Join Date: 02 Jul 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,682

A little bit confusion has always its charm ... :-)

I found according this page ...

http://www.esoterikshopping.de/produ...P-Grimaud.html

... a deck, which seems rather equal to that, which I've presented here.

The German explanation says, that it is a deck of Grimaud and of 1880, an information, which the author likely got from the text book.

Well, the small text book found by Stephen is from c. 1770-1820, according Gallica. The playing card seller thinks, that it is the deck of 1807 (well, I can't see precisely, if there are major differences of the seller's deck to this deck "from 1880").

Here is a deck (same motifs), which surely presents another generation:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oracles...n/photostream/
... but it doesn't look like from "begin of 19th century".
This page has it ...
http://www.logos-magia.com/1755-Peti...des-dames.html
for "from 1807".



__________________
Huck

"getting it home to the writing desk"

Last edited by Huck; 11-02-2012 at 00:06.
Huck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2012 Need answers now? Get 50% off your first live Tarot session!     Top   #8
Cerulean 
Citizen
 
Cerulean's Avatar
 
Join Date: 26 Apr 2002
Location: Calif., USA
Posts: 9,341
Yes 588 is on the box for the Grimaud/Frances Cartes reprint


and I remember images from my Dover reprint of D'Allemagne of a Petit Oracle des Dames, the images are in color.

Incidently, the reprinted Frances Cartes/Grimaud manuel may differ from the Gallica text...I posted a
little more text in one of the threads for card 23. Maybe I should keep such discussions here.

Back later.

Cerulean

P.S., Huck, Coredil, Kraw and others running internet eyes hitherr and yon...Incredible historical ilumination and joyful discovery! How bright enlightenment from the texts and pictures of so long ago...Thank you for such joys.Iii


[QUOTE=Huck;3039762]hi, Mari

well, this is in dramatic manner different to the version we've in the museum. If Jupiter had b are in color.

een really Nr. 2 (I can't judge, what this 4-pictures-compositions are; decorations of a box or cards), then this deck from ...
http://www-bsg.univ-paris1.fr/la_res...eu/horsjeu.htm
had a different system.
But Stephen checked the Museum version with the online text. It seemed to have been identical, as I understood it.
So we have to control this. .... I checked it, at least till Nr. 30. Stephen was right, this seems to be the description of the deck.The information to the text states:

Quote:
Title : Le petit oracle des dames, ou Récréation du curieux... / (par Alliette)
Author : Alliette (17..-18..? ; cartomancien)
Publisher : impr. de Ducessois (Paris)
Date of publication : 1770-1820
Type : monographie imprimée
Language : French
Format : 82 p. ; in-32
Format : application/pdf
Copyright : domaine public
Identifier : ark:/12148/bpt6k62270d
Source : Bibliothèque nationale de France, département Philosophie, histoire, sciences de l'homme, R-42846
Relation : http://catalogue.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/cb30012112b
Provenance : bnf.fr

... is not directly confirming the date 1807.

Alexander (Museum) gave the information:
WWPCM02462
"Grimaud" (France)
deck No.394 132 "Le Petit Oracle des Dames", 1997
reprint of deck No.588

I don't know, what "deck No.588" is referring to. It's a remake, I stated this.

************

http://www.muenzgalerie.de/kataloge/...arten_2007.pdf
... confirms, that the number "W88" refers to a reprint 1991 of a Fortunetelling deck made in 1807 Nr. 588 is likely an older catalog). An example picture (Magician/Fool, 21) confirms, that this a reprint of the same deck.
At Page 44. So it is at least a general assumption, that the reprinted version is from 1807.

I think, the playing card traders often have the better information than the libraries. But naturally this might be wrong in this specific case.



__________________
Still, cerulean surges...
where, as sunset lingers
Eve with golden fingers...

Hector A. Stuart
South Sea Dreamer, 1886

Last edited by Cerulean; 11-02-2012 at 02:22.
Cerulean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012 Need answers now? Get 50% off your first live Tarot session!     Top   #9
Huck 
Citizen
 
Join Date: 02 Jul 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,682

Here is a fragmented Kaplan deck, sold in 2006 for 180 $ ...

http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/l...jectID=4740321



Quote:
Le Petit Oracle des Dames, circa 1807, France, maker unknown, three sheets comprising 51 half cards, hand-colored copper engravings. The cards are full-length figures, double ended, no text on cards, French suits on 32 of the cards, no indices, these sheets are similar to a pack that was first published in 1807 by Veuve Guffier, Paris, that included text for fortune telling on the cards and was called Le Petit Oracle des Dames. Backs plain. Card size 1 11/16 in. (4.3 cm.) high, 2 1/8 in. (5.2 cm.) wide, one card is 2 1/16 in. (5.2 cm.) high, 2 1/8 in. (5.2 cm.) wide. Sheet sizes: 7 in. (18.8 cm.) high, 11 in. (28 cm.) wide, and 7 in. (18.2 cm.), 10 7/8 in. (27.5 cm.) wide, and 7 1/16 in. (18 cm.) high, 6 9/16 in. 16.6 cm.) wide. Slightly worn, two minor creases, minor repair on sides of three cards.
Not easy to recognize something. Luckily a part of the objects are presented by Stuart Kaplan, Encyclopedia I, at page 157.

Well, there we have the third Petit Orakel des Dames, now in 51 playing card halves.

Somehow an important document of playing card development, possibly a single piece. I don't know ... 180 $ ... what are we doing here ... :-)



__________________
Huck

"getting it home to the writing desk"

Last edited by Huck; 11-02-2012 at 22:00.
Huck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012 Need answers now? Get 50% off your first live Tarot session!     Top   #10
  post a reply

Latest Threads in Tarot Decks

Latest Threads in Talking Tarot

Latest Threads in Using Tarot Cards



Go ad-free and support us too - upgrade your account to subscriber today

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On



All times are GMT +10. The time now is 21:16.

 


Tarot Forum Categories
· Tarot Decks
· Using Tarot Cards
· Tarot Trading
· Talking Tarot
· Reading Exchange
· Your Readings
· Tarot Games & Fun
· Tarot Deck Creation
· Marseilles
· Rider-Waite-Smith
· Thoth Tarot
· Tarot Study Groups
· Lenormand
· Oracles
· Divination
· Spirituality
· Chat
· New Members
· Advertisements
· Forum Help


Aeclectic Tarot Categories
· Dark & Gothic Decks
· Steampunk Decks
· Goddess Decks
· Angel Decks
· Fairy Decks
· Dragon Decks
· Beginner Decks
· Pagan & Wiccan Decks
· Ancient Egyptian Decks
· Celtic Decks
· Fantasy Decks
· Tarot Books
· Lenormand Decks
· Rider-Waite Decks
· Marseilles Decks
· Thoth Decks
· Oracle Decks
· Doreen Virtue Decks
· Popular Tarot Decks
· Available Decks
· Upcoming Decks
· Solandia's Top Ten
· Top Ten Decks
· List All Decks

Who is behind the Aeclectic Tarot Forum?

My name is Kate Hill (also known as Solandia) and I'm a Tarot reader, deck collector, and lifelong student of the beauty and diversity of Tarot cards.

I created Aeclectic in 1996 to share my passion for Tarot with the world, and started the forum in 2000 so others could share theirs too. Read more about me, contact me or connect in the forum.

  Contribute to Aeclectic

· Add your deck
· Advertise
· Write a review
· Join the community

  Aeclectic Tarot Resources

Copyright © 1996 - 2017 Aeclectic Tarot. All rights reserved. Privacy Policy. Contact us.