[ravenest]

Originally Posted by PAMUYA

Yes to your question, tarot has been made more complex than is has to be.

No ... that was not the question ... thats a fudge. The question is; has it been made more complex than it NEEDS to be. This is not quibbling, it is an important point.

Originally Posted by PAMUYA

As Einstein said, if your can't explain something simply, you do not understand it well enough. Not just in tarot, but everything in life.

So he came up with very simple things like E=MC2 ... I wonder how many , out of the vast majority know what those letters even stand for or mean ... yet they can rattle off the formula .

Originally Posted by PAMUYA

We are dealing with different cultures, beliefs, and traditions trying to understand the meaning of life, the whys and hows through tarot.

And one doesn't need a complex understanding for that ? I can sum it up in a brief statement ... that would make as much sense to most as E=MC2 ... most would nod and say; yes, that's it ... but there is a LOT of understanding and complexity behind it.

Originally Posted by PAMUYA

We are also dealing with the egos of all these readers responding and defending their positions.

Uh hu ! <nods>

Originally Posted by PAMUYA

We as humans are going through the same emotional, psychological problems as our ancestors, the only thing that is different is our access to information, we are constantly being bombarded with data of all kinds.

Well, before our 'access to information' and before 'us' the Australian Aboriginal ( the oldest culture still extant on the planet today) has the most complex kinship system of anyone .... I was warned about that when I started Anthropology at Sydney Uni ... the lecturer actually warned me ' Well, their moiety system is the most complex one in the world ... some find that part hard to get through.' - I didnt have a chance - fail. And that was even when broken down into its simplest components and represented with diagrams and symbols - even back then, before this modern age of info tech ... things were as complex as they were needed to be for the people and the situation at hand.

Originally Posted by PAMUYA

Who is right? No one, everyone? A combination? You must find your own way, what makes sense to you, keep an open and flexable mind.
Don't get caught up in information over load.

I agree, If one doesnt need all the extra info, just dont use it. But that doesnt mean that the system itself is overloaded or more complex than it needs to be, it can means it is more complex than someones usage might require .

If I want to use my deck to make a house of cards, t he deck contains much more info than I need ... it doesnt mean that the deck is more complex than IT needs to be.

[PAMUYA]

Originally Posted by ravenest

No ... that was not the question ... thats a fudge. The question is; has it been made more complex than it NEEDS to be. This is not quibbling, it is an important point.



So he came up with very simple things like E=MC2 ... I wonder how many , out of the vast majority know what those letters even stand for or mean ... yet they can rattle off the formula .



And one doesn't need a complex understanding for that ? I can sum it up in a brief statement ... that would make as much sense to most as E=MC2 ... most would nod and say; yes, that's it ... but there is a LOT of understanding and complexity behind it.



Uh hu ! <nods>



Well, before our 'access to information' and before 'us' the Australian Aboriginal ( the oldest culture still extant on the planet today) has the most complex kinship system of anyone .... I was warned about that when I started Anthropology at Sydney Uni ... the lecturer actually warned me ' Well, their moiety system is the most complex one in the world ... some find that part hard to get through.' - I didnt have a chance - fail. And that was even when broken down into its simplest components and represented with diagrams and symbols - even back then, before this modern age of info tech ... things were as complex as they were needed. to be for the people and the situation at hand.



I agree, If one doesnt need all the extra info, just dont use it. But that doesnt mean that the system itself is overloaded or more complex than it needs to be, it can means it is more complex than someones usage might require .

If I want to use my deck to make a house of cards, t he deck contains much more info than I need ... it doesnt mean that the deck is more complex than IT needs to be.

This as an excellent example, things get more complex, excess informaton, and opinions more than is necessary or NEEDS to be. It just keeps bulding upon itself.

[ravenest]

Again! That is a relative opinion ... like the cards and this conversation ... it is as complex as it needs to be for the purpose at hand depending on the individual; it is not " more complex, excess information, and opinions more than is necessary or NEEDS" to be ... you are projecting a subjective need for yourself on to an objective thing which can supply multiple needs, including for others.

You can make that statement for yourself subjectively but not TO SOMETHING objective like an opinion or tarot cards. That is like insisting that what you think, others should think .

Originally Posted by LRichard

Doesn't the answer to the complexity issue involve two considerations: (1) the amount of complexity the author of the deck put into it, and (2) the purpose for which the deck is used?

Person A may not care at all whether the RWS Emperor's throne is decorated with Ram's heads, whereas to person B the Ram symbolism may be highly significant. It is amusing when people think that their own particular view of things should be universally accepted.

[Marie-Bernard]

Originally Posted by ravenest

So he came up with very simple things like E=MC2 ... I wonder how many , out of the vast majority know what those letters even stand for or mean ... yet they can rattle off the formula .

I'd like to take this opportunity to make myself feel smart by pointing out that in your example of a very simple formula the constant is the speed of light. However, it's since been found that the speed of light is only MOSTLY constant. (Gosh, who watched The Princess Bride today?)

Funny thing to me, what some people think of as complexity is really, like E=mc2, an attempt to give formula, or simplicity, to what would otherwise be near impossible concepts to relate.

[ravenest]

Originally Posted by Marie-Bernard

I'd like to take this opportunity to make myself feel smart by pointing out that in your example of a very simple formula the constant is the speed of light. However, it's since been found that the speed of light is only MOSTLY constant. (Gosh, who watched The Princess Bride today?)

Funny thing to me, what some people think of as complexity is really, like E=mc2, an attempt to give formula, or simplicity, to what would otherwise be near impossible concepts to relate.

A bit like a tarot deck

[Holly doll]

That's the beauty of tarot - it is both as complex & as simple as it needs to be in that moment in time, for that person - for me it's an antinomial truth

[Richard]

Originally Posted by PAMUYA

Yes to your question, tarot has been made more complex than is has to be. As Einstein said, if your can't explain something simply, you do not understand it well enough. Not just in tarot, but everything in life......

Einstein also said that everything should be as simple as possible BUT NOT SIMPLER! Telephone books have become so 'simplified' that it has become difficult to find emergency telephone numbers, and computer operating systems have become so 'simple' that one has to a search for diagnostic procedures which required only a single word at the command prompt in DOS.

For me it is simpler to understand why a common keyword for the Chariot is 'victory' than to merely memorize the keyword without understanding its origins.

When I wanted to know why Justice and Strength were interchanged in the RWS, I had to find out. To say that it is an astrological thing is merely to replace one question by another. I had to dig to find out why it is relevant, and I know now that it doesn't really matter, provided that one has an enlightened view of the issue. It took a good bit of time to come to that realization.

We have become so used to instant gratification that we have become allergic to anything which may involve what we regard as complexity, but sometimes a little digging provides its own gratification in the form of deeper insight.

[ravenest]

Instant gratification .... you may be onto something there .... thats what some want -instant gratification (or 'solution')

'Delay gratification' is one of the 4 basic principles for a healthy psychology.

- Tests done on kids showed that those that could delay gratification seemed more stable than the 'quick fix now' kids , who could not resist instant gratification, who also had a whole range of other problems.

[mused]

Tarot means different things to different people. As previously stated, whether or not tarot has been made more complex than it needs to be is subject to individuals' opinions. How one uses tarot is up to the individual. The other stuff attributed to tarot over the years isn't mandatory, one can take it or leave it

For me I like all the different interpretations and supplementary details that have been attributed to tarot over many years. It helps me deepen my knowledge by giving me different perspectives to think about. I also find in some cases tarot makes it easier to learn about other topics that have been paired with it like numerology, astrology etc

One way I like to think about it is similar to learning the ABC's. If I gave someone who was not familiar with the English alphabet a list of 26 letters and told them to memorize them it would likely be pretty difficult without some type of memorization method. That's why the ABCs are paired with a cutesy little song (Twinkle twinkle little star) to make the ABCs easier to learn. Hmmmm maybe I should make a cutesy tarot song....

To me tarot has not been made complex but just the opposite. Tarot is a simpler way for me to recall knowledge about other subjects paired with it that I would otherwise find quite complicated

[ravenest]

Originally Posted by mused

... If I gave someone who was not familiar with the English alphabet a list of 26 letters and told them to memorize them it would likely be pretty difficult without some type of memorization method. That's why the ABCs are paired with a cutesy little song (Twinkle twinkle little star) to make the ABCs easier to learn. Hmmmm maybe I should make a cutesy tarot song....

As in great haste,
What makes the golden Stars to march so fast?
What makes the Moon sometimes to mask her face,
The Sun also, as if in some disgrace?
How th’ Sun doth rule with twelve Zodiac Signs,
The Orb that's measur’d round about with Lines—
It doth the Heavens' Starry Way make known,
And strange Eclipses of the Sun and Moon;
Arcturus also, and the Stars of Rain,
The Seven Stars likewise, and Charles, his wain;
Why Winter Suns make tow’rds the West so fast;
What makes the Nights so long ere they be past?

Hence, by the Heavens we may foreknow
The Seasons all; times for to reap and sow,
And when 'tis fit to launch into the deep,
And when to war, and when in peace to sleep;
And when to dig up trees, and them again
To set, that they may bring forth amain.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/pnm/pnm11.htm