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Have found the hidden country Huck, I have drunk at a speak easy!

No I think you misunderstand me.
There are no surviving images from the Michelino so.......
Card games are about illustrations on card.
16 God/Goddesses are unlike our Tarot which has contrast between the cards and can be seen in your hand from the 1/3 you can see in a fan spread.
The Michelino description (yours) is very clear in written form- it makes sense.I like it as card game-pairs/Elements etc....
I said...
Quote:
For example the Michelino 16 Gods are really hard to see in a sequence, in a hand. Philosophically the Roman Gods might be a better game, but their depiction makes that not actual.
In pictorial form, as in a card game which relies on recognition, The Michelino may well have ended up like this.... for the Virginities for example

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...rthenon_BM.jpg

Dione/Hesta/Aphrodite
seperate this sculpture and you have a game called 'obscurification' or 'who is whom'?
I am saying that one reason Tarot as we know it, became successful- one can see each card by a small margin of a fan in your hand. That is the important thing in a game of cards. Quickly know/recognise your cards. I think it is possible that the most easily recognised cards have stayed.
Has anyone tried to depict the Michelino from the words into a deck of cards? Or better still are there some of those images remaining in Tarot? Diane as Star for example.

I think I would have liked a Michelino Deck, in Gold dusted with diamonds- looking at the price.
~Rosanne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosanne View Post
Have found the hidden country Huck, I have drunk at a speak easy!

No I think you misunderstand me.
There are no surviving images from the Michelino so.......
Card games are about illustrations on card.
16 God/Goddesses are unlike our Tarot which has contrast between the cards and can be seen in your hand from the 1/3 you can see in a fan spread.
The Michelino description (yours) is very clear in written form- it makes sense.I like it as card game-pairs/Elements etc....
I said...

In pictorial form, as in a card game which relies on recognition, The Michelino may well have ended up like this.... for the Virginities for example

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...rthenon_BM.jpg

Dione/Hesta/Aphrodite
seperate this sculpture and you have a game called 'obscurification' or 'who is whom'?
I am saying that one reason Tarot as we know it, became successful- one can see each card by a small margin of a fan in your hand. That is the important thing in a game of cards. Quickly know/recognise your cards. I think it is possible that the most easily recognised cards have stayed.
Has anyone tried to depict the Michelino from the words into a deck of cards? Or better still are there some of those images remaining in Tarot? Diane as Star for example.

I think I would have liked a Michelino Deck, in Gold dusted with diamonds- looking at the price.
~Rosanne
Well, there's a deck, which became more successful than Tarot: the normal 4x13-deck. Also an ancestor of the Tarot game.

If we declare the 4x13 as the A-typus, and the final Tarocchi (4x14 + 22) as a Z-typus, we have enough space (B till Y) to observe many variants, between them the Michelino deck at a natural state between both deck-types.
As possibly the Boiardo deck had been the first deck with the 4x14 + 22 strucure, and this had been just rather different to the "normal and successful" Tarocchi, we likely have to invent a lot of Z-001, z-002 etc. to describe the way from Boiardo deck to the real successful deck, in which everything was CORRECT ... according that what the common Tarot mind thinks, what's CORRECT.



... as an unknown ludus triumphorum card meant, considering the profane terminus "Tarochi" and its consequence "Tarot for everybody" ... :-)
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chuckle chuckle.......

Well actually I had forgotten that the most successful card game is actually 4x13....
The four suits are the most constant thing in the History of Tarot or in the words 'Tarot for Everyone'. Well looking at cards today- French suited have superceded Italian suited in popularity. For the same reason, I said earlier. They are easier to see in your hand...Hearts, Diamonds, Spades and Clubs.

That unknown ludus profanus- is that your family crest with a chess board sheild? :wink:

~Rosanne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosanne View Post

That unknown ludus profanus- is that your family crest with a chess board sheild? :wink:

~Rosanne
No, it's a detail of an old Tarocchi card out of a fragmented deck with 5 cards, from which 3 cards are rather identical to cards, which appear in the type Rosenthal / Victoria-Albert / Bartsch Visconti/Sforza Tarocchi, a trump death, a trump star and a number card (4 of swords). Further there is an ace of coins.
In the case, that it is NOT a forgery (that's a possibility)....

... we have the chess board here ...


http://www.ngw.nl/heraldrywiki/index...dom_of_Croatia

... and it is presented with a comment

Quote:
The Kingdom of Croatia (nearly identical to present Croatia) was created by King Koloman of Hungary in 1105, after he defeated the Croats. Ever since the territory was officially part of Hungary, even though a large part was under Turkish rule for many centuries.
The arms first appear on a coin from King Ludwig II of Hungary from 1525. The origin of the arms is not clear. The arms are still used without helmet and crest by the Republic of Croatia.
... and I found, that this might be wrong, cause it seems, that in Innsbruck was found an older of 1495


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cr..._Arms_1495.JPG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_Arms_of_Croatia

Further somebody made these observations:
http://www.croatia.org/crown/croatia...IAN%20ARMS.htm

... which occasionally meet a "count of Segni"

And there is this background in Oldest Trionfi History:

Isotta d'Este (1425–1456), one of the three girls in Ferrara at 1.1.1441 (the other were the more famous Bianca Maria Visconti and Beatrice d'Este, who married later Tristano Sforza and lived a long life at the Sforza court till 1497), ...
... "Married first Oddantonio da Montefeltro, Duke of Urbino and secondly Stjepan III Frankopan Modruški (Stephen Frangipani), Prince of Krk, Senj and Modruš, a member of Frankopan noble family (Croatia)."

"Senj" = Segna
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senj
According this city description, the Frangipani family got Senj in 1271.



https://archive.org/stream/frangipan...search/ferrara

Frangipani genealoy
http://genealogy.euweb.cz/balkan/frangep2.html
Quote:
E3. [1m.] István II (Stepko), Ct of Veglia and Modrus, Ban of Croatia, +1.3.1481; m.1446 Isotta d'Este (*1425 +1456)

F1. Bernardino (Bernát), Ct of Veglia and Modrus, +3.11.1527; m.before 16.9.1476 Donna Luisa Marzano d'Aragona
G1. Mátyás, fl 1495-1521; m.Zsófia Thúz de Lak (fl 1510-17), dau.of János Thúz de Lak, Ban of Slavonia
G2. Kristóf, Ct of Veglia, Zengg and Modrus, Ban of Croatia, +Martinac 22.9.1527; 1m: 1513 Apollonia Lang von Wellenburg (*1475/76, +Milano 4.2.1520), dau.of Hans Lang von Wellenburg and Margareta Sulzer; 2m: Anna Drágffy de Béltek (fl 1522-27), dau.of Bertalan Drágffy de Béltek and Dorottya Héderváry de Hédervár
G3. Ferdinand, +ca 1527; m.before 1509 Marija Brankovic (+1540)
H1. Katalin, +20.6.1561; m.Ozalj 17.6.1543 Gf Miklós Zrínyi de Brebir (*1508, +k.a. Szigetvár 8.9.1566)
H2. István, +1575; m.Bss Katalin Egkh von Hungerbach
G4. Mária Magdolna, fl 1489, engaged to Mátyás Pongrácz de Dengeleg
G5. Isotta (Erzsébet), +13.9.1545; 1m: 22.1.1492 László Egerváry de Egervár et Velike (+before 1496); 2m: 5.9.1515 István Perényi de Nagyida (+1523/before 30.7.1525); 3m: 1528/33 Gf Gáspár Serédy de Seréd (+1.3.1550)
G6. Beatrix, *1480, +after 10.3.1510; 1m: 1496 János Corvinus Hunyadi, Pr of Hungary (*2.4.1473, +12.10.1504); 2m: Gyula 21.1./22.7.1509 Mkgf Georg von Brandenburg-Ansbach (*Ansbach 4.3.1484, +Ansbach 27.12.1543)
G7. János Ferenc, Archbishop of Kalocsa, +Pozsony 1543
(G8. Fruzsina; m.Ferenc Dessewffy de Csernek et Tarkeő)
(G9. Katalin, +after 1536; m.after 1502 Adam Svetokovic)[/b]
Kristóf, Ct of Veglia, Zengg and Modrus, Ban of Croatia, +Martinac 22.9.1527; 1m: 1513 Apollonia Lang von Wellenburg (*1475/76, +Milano 4.2.1520), dau.of Hans Lang von Wellenburg and Margareta Sulzer[/b];

Kristóf (grandson of Isotta d'Este) and Apollonia (sister of cardinal Gurk) are the interesting persons. They married 1513.

Kristóf (= Christoph) was a hero in the war 1508-1512, which started as a war against Venice and ended with the expulsion of the French out of Italy.
Cardinal Gurk (= Matthias Lang) had been the major manager of the troops of the emperor during the war. Negotiations during the war often took place in Mantova, so Isabella d'Este was involved.

After the victory in September 1512 (French troops had left Italy) cardinal Gurk and Isabella d'Este arranged a theater play in Mantova and in Verona.

Andrea Vitali noted the appearance of the words ludus triumphorum and of Taroch.
http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=263&lng=ENG
Quote:
The text Italy and Mantua goes on explaining that even in games the use of barbaric names has prevailed: «Quid illud, quod in ludis quoque barbaris verbis utuntur?". Petrarch had designated with the name of game of Triumphs the painted cards, without doubt an excellent choice, since that term referred to warlike victory: "Franciscus enim ille meus Petrarcha picturatarum cartarum ludo Triumphorum nomen induxerat (9), optime quidem, quod in eo veluti bellica victoria spectatur". But now with the barbarian rite, without relationship to the Latin, they call it taroch: "Barbaro ritu, taroch nunc dicunt nulla latina ratione". But then why is that game is not called no less improperly bachiach? "Sed cur non minus improprie bachiach?» (10).
It's not clear, if these words were already in the play in 1512. But it's plausible.

A little time later in 1512 Gurk and Isabella d'Este had a strong part in the arrangement, that the Sforza rule should be reestablished in Milan. Massimiliano Sforza returned to Italy as "new duke of Milan".
Isabella d'Este had a guiding role in the arrangement of the festivities.

On two of the remaining cards of the Rosenthal / Victoria-Albert / Bartsch Visconti/Sforza Tarocchi deck family appears the motto "Nec spe, nec metu" (neither Hope or Fear). This motto was taken by Isabella d'Este in 1505 (in both cases at the Ace of Cups).

An earlier use of the motto couldn't be found. It seems plausible to assume, that this deck type under this conditions should have produced after 1505.



Between 1505 and 1512 there had been not much reason to prolong Sforza heraldry in any manner. The Sforza had been a fallen dynasty. In 1512 suddenly after a not expected great victory, the Sforza theme had found a reason to return back. And Isabella d'Este and cardinal Gurk had been in the center of this activity.
I think, that this deck form is of 1512 and accompanied the festivities of Massimiliano's return.

Naturally some persons with less central position, but also with some merits, should have found some attention, too. For instance Christoph Frangipani. He got the hand of cardinal Gurk's sister Apollonia, who had been a widow since 1510.
She had been a lady of the Emperor court till 1503, before she went into her first marriage. Naturally she should have been then close to Bianca Maria Sforza, an Empress with a special favor for playing-cards.
Well, it seems, that Frangipani also got a deck ... and possibly some others, too.

In the deck type appears twice the otherwise not present card of a Visconti-viper ...



... and once the figure of an astonishing cardinal at the Ace of coins.

Either the card with the detail of the Croatian heraldic ...



... just replaced the Visconti-viper, or, likely the more probable solution, the deck just contained both shields, that of the Visconti viper and the shield of the person, who got this deck as a present.

For the Ace of Coin inside the 5 new "old cards" we have not a cardinal presented, but this person ....



... from which I don't know what "S(L or T ?) ... NA" might mean. "SL...OWE ... NA" (for Slovenia) might fit, but I don't know, if this is a correct writing and I don't know, if it is possible to connect Christoph Frangipani to Slowenia. "ST ... epha ... NA" might fit, but I also don't if this is a correct writing for Stephan and I don't understand this association to the grandfather.

The cardinal picture at the Ace of coins has also letters, though rather difficult to recognize. I guess, that this surviving deck was made for a cardinal. I've no idea, who this cardinal might have been.
Perhaps Gurk, who became cardinal in 1511, but this was published not before November 1512. Massimiliano Sforza arrived in December 1512, so that's all rather close.
Cardinal Schiner was also involved in Massimiliano's return, but likely there are more possibilities.
Although the cards are partly "very similar" between the different deck versions, there are mostly small differences. So the 4 of swords has rather similar swords, but the background decoration is different. The star picture of the new five cards has a cliff in the foreground, but other cards of the deck type have it not. (see Kaplan I).

***********

Apollonia (name of the Gurk sister) married Christoph ...



... and they sponsored this picture, which shows at one side Christopherus and at the other side the saint Apollonia (so Christopherus + Apollonia), and there's suspicion, that the saints look like the sponsors.

That's Christoph Frangipani:



Indeed there's some similarity.
Well, and there's a story of a famous ring in New York Times from 1901 ...
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive...DC405B818CF1D3
... and there are other stories about Frangipani, the prisoner of the Venetians.
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That is a fascinating post Huck!

Well in the History of Things, here is a little aside about The Frangipane dynasty, that resonates with us who live in the Southern Hemisphere who love the plant Plumeria- called here 'Frangipani'.

The name, frangipani, comes from the Italian nobleman, Marquis Frangipani, who created a perfume used to scent gloves in the 16th century. When the frangipani flower was discovered its natural perfume reminded people of the scented gloves, and so the flower was called frangipani. Interestingly enough on the Subject of Perfume- Hungary Water is the first European perfume........(just a little cross polination going on here)

I need to read more about Isotta d'Este.
~Rosanne
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Isotta married to the Montefeltro family ...

http://genealogy.euweb.cz/italy/mtfeltro.html
Quote:
ANTONIO, +1404, Conte di Montefeltro, Signore di Urbino, Cagli e Cantiano 1377, Signore di Gubbio 1384; m.Agnesina de Prefetti, dau.of Giovanni Prefect and Lord of Vico (+ca 1410)

A1. Battista, *Urbino 1375, +Pesaro 1420; m.1391 Galeazzo Malatesta, Lord of Pesaro (+1446)
A2. GUIDANTONIO, Signore of Urbino, *Urbino 1378, +Urbino 21.2.1443; 1m: Rengarda Malatesta, dau.of Galeotto Roberto, Lord of Rimini (+1434); 2m: 23.1.1424/1436 Caterina Colonna (+1438)
B1. Agnesina, *1425, +Imola 1522; m.1451 (?) Guidantonio Manfredi Lord of Imola and Faenza (+1448); 2m: Allesandro Gonzaga, Signore di Medole (+1466)
B2. ODDANTONIO cr Duca di Urbino e Gubbio 1443 by Pope Eugenius IV, *Urbino 1427, +k.a.Urbino 1444; m.10.3.1444 Isotta d'Este (*1425 +1456), illegittimate dau.of Niccole III Lord of Ferrara and Modena
B3. Violante, *Urbino 1430, +Ferrara 1493; m.1446 Domenico Novello (also called "Malatesta Novello") Malatesta Lord of Cesena (+1465); after her husband's death she became nun in Corpus Domini convent in Ferrara
B4. Sveva, *Urbino 1432, +Pesaro 1478, she became a nun in 1457 with the name of Suor Maria Serafina, Abbess of Santa Chiara convent in Pesaro 1467, beatified in 1754; m.1448 (anulled 1457) Alessandro Sforza, Lord of Pesaro (*1409 +1473)
B5. [illegittimate] Pietro, *ca 1410, +1479, a Benedictine monk, Abbot-Bishop of Castel Durante 1456
B6. [illegittimate] Aura, *ca 1415, +1475; m.1432 Ubaldino degli Ubaldini, Conte di Apecchio (+1457)
B7. [illegittimate by Ludovica degli Ubaldini] FEDERICO II Maria, succeeded his half-brother as Duca di Urbino e Gubbio 1444, *Gubbio 1422, +Urbino 1482; 1m: 1440 Gentile Brancaleoni, Lady of Massa Trabaria and Css of Mercatello sul Metauro (+1459); 2m: 1460 Battista Sforza (*1447 +1472)
.... ODDANTONIO heir of Urbino and Gubbio. This looked like a good match. A short time later Oddantonio was killed, possibly by Federico Montefeltro, his half-brother.
Isotta likely returned home. This happened 1444.
Federico Montefeltro became the famous condottiero. He married Battista, daughter of Alessandro Sforza.

Galeazzo Malatesta, ruler in Pesaro and Fossombrone, had trouble with his Malatesta cousins. So he sold Pesaro to Alessandro Sforza, and Fossombrone to the young Federico, what enraged the Malatesta cousins (Dec/Jan 1444/45). Alessandro married a Varano heiress for this deal. She became mother of Costanzo and Battista short time after the wedding. Battista married then Federico later, Costanzo became heir in Pesaro.

Isotta married Stephan Frangipani.

Earlier notes http://trionfi.com/niccolo-d-este-iii-children
Quote:
11. Isotta [by Filippa della Tavola] *Ferrara 1425, + in a plague 1456;
1m: Oddantonio da Montefeltro, Cte d'Urbino (*1425 +1444); the husband is murdered short after the marriage, the regency is taken by the young Federico Montefeltro, who later becomes a successful condittiero, duke of Urbino and a famous book-collector and protector of the arts (he's involved in the development of Ludovico Lazzarelli and the Mantegna Tarocchi. Nonetheless of this later positive development the murder case is a great scandal in 1444 (murder in 1444).
2m: 1446 Stefano Frangipani, Cte di Segni (= István, Ct of Veglia and Modrus, Bán of Croatia, +1481; Bán is the title of a regent of Croatia inside the Hungarian kingdom). The only son of the marriage, Bernát, married before 1476 Luisa Marzona d'Aragona, that is a daughter of the sister of Leonello d'Este's second wife (marriage 1445). Some concrete arguments from the familiary situation of the Aragons and the general Trionfi development make it plausible, that the Bernát/Luisa marriage was involved in Trionfi customs and possibly in the development of Trionfi cards (Dokument 32, Dokument 33 and the known descriptions of other Aragon daughter marriages around this time: Eleanore d'Aragon - Ercole d'Este 1473; Beatrice d'Aragon - Matthias Corvinus, king of Hungary 1476; Camilla Marzano d'Aragona - Costanzo Sforza 1475 (Luisa's sister)).
The Frangipani were an old Roman family, an early branch of it wandered to Croatia.
It might be, that Isotta's second marriage opened (or revived) an important diplomatic Italian way to Hungary (a Ferrarese girl, an earlier Beatrice d'Este, had married in 1235 the Hungarian king Andrew II; her grandson much later became Hungarian king himself, reigning 1290 - 1301); it followed, that the young Janus Pannonius (* 1434) of North Croatia studied in Leonello's and Borso's Ferrara and became a famous poet, who even impressed Cosimo di Medici at the occasion of a visit. In 1459 he became bishop in Hungary, the related Aragon family married 1476 a daughter to the king of Hungary and cardinal Ippolito d'Este as a young man visited Hungary 1493 and asked for a Tarocchi play in a letter to his mother. By this way Hungary developed an own form of early renaissance (Virtues in Hungary).
Isotta had nearly the same age as Bianca Maria Visconti - this makes her a very interesting person for the situation of December/January 1441.
She is in my opinion a second candidate as object of the Pisanello picture (it's also suggested in art history, that the picture was done 1443/1444).
Euweb has ... "[by Filippa della Tavola] Isotta, *Ferrara 1425, +Pest 1456; 1m: Oddantonio da Montefeltro, Cte d'Urbino (*1427 +1444); 2m: 1446 Stefano Frangipani, Cte di Segni (+1481)
Possibly "+Pest" means not "cause of the plague", but "died in Pest (location in Hungary, nowadays 'Budapest' by contraction of the cities Pest and Buda)"

http://books.google.de/books?id=zk5K...gipani&f=false
... knows a date for the wedding festivity "April 22 in 1446"

This sounds ...


http://books.google.de/books?id=VgM7...gipani&f=false

... as if life with Stefano Frangipani wasn't easy

http://books.google.de/books?id=SEtJ...=0CGcQ6AEwCDgK
... reports some productions for Isotta at the Ferrarese court

The information is thin about her. Possibly there is some more in other languages, but as the writing of the names in foreign languages might differ, it's difficult to get something.
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I found that this......
Isotta d' Este was born on 27 April 1425; She was illegitimate. She married Stephan Frangepan, Count of Veglia, Ban of Croatia & Dalmatia, son of Nikola (Miklos) Frangepan, Count of Veglia, Modrus, & Zengg, Lord of Vinodol, Ribnik & Slunj, Ban of Croatia & Dalmatia and Dorottya Garai, in 1446. Isotta d' Este died on 29 January 1456 at age 30; Buried at Krocka.
I cannot find Krocka and wondered if that is in Croatia or is it Brockau in Germany?

I also found that like most of her siblings, she as named after persons in Authurian Romances, taken from French Manuscripts.
Ginevra who married Malatesta and as poisoned from an Emerald cup was named after Guinevere -Arthurs Queen, Meliaduse as after King Melideus, Leonello and Borso after Sir Bors and Sir Lionell of the Holy grail quest ; Isotta as named after Isolde lover of Saint Tristam....the list goes on lol. He had a fair few children.
Puts a whole different aspect to the drawings in Kaplan codex Palatino of Lancelot.

~Rosanne
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This says Islotta died in Pest, Hungary.
http://fabpedigree.com/s073/f431556.htm

We have frangipanes here, too. Parenthetical to tarot. Sometimes I read cards near a frangipane tree.
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Cross polination allowed Debra! You are now in the annals as reading under a frangapani tree.
Interesting that Isotta died in Budapest- did they cart her all the way to Poland? Krackow? to be buried?
~Rosanne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosanne View Post
Cross polination allowed Debra! You are now in the annals as reading under a frangapani tree.
Interesting that Isotta died in Budapest- did they cart her all the way to Poland? Krackow? to be buried?
~Rosanne
Somebody spoke of Krocka, not Krakau (whatever Krocka shall be). I don't know, what an Italian princess, who married to Croatia (which belonged to Hungary) should do in Poland, either alive or dead. Pest has some logic, near to the capital. Krocka (if not a writing error or a lost location or a name in foreign, perhaps lost language) should be near Pest or in Croatia.
Croatia has the islands "Krk" (no joke) and "Cres". Perhaps buried on Krocka = Krk.

Here it is:

Quote:
Count Stefan von Frankapán Click to preview: Count Stefan von Frankapán, b. Abt 1408, of, Modrus, Hrvatska, Yugoslavia Find all individuals with events at this location, d. 1481 (Age ~ 73 years)
Married 1446 of, Ferrara, Ferrara, Italy Find all individuals with events at this location
Children
+ 1. Count Bernardo von Frankapán Click to preview: Count Bernardo von Frankapán, b. Abt 1447, of Krk, Hrvatska, Croatia, Yugoslavia Find all individuals with events at this location, d. Aft Apr 1516 (Age ~ 69 years)
2. Count Matija von Frankapán Click to preview: Count Matija von Frankapán, b. Abt 1449, of Krk, Hrvatska, Croatia, Yugoslavia Find all individuals with events at this location, d. Yes, date unknown
http://www.ourfamilyhistories.org/ge...I65385&tree=00

Isotta's children were born at the island Krk. So likely she was buried on Krk. And if she really is buried there, then she likely died cause of the plague "Pest", and not in the location Pest. Cause the plague had been in 1456 in this region, St. Capistran and Hunyadi died cause of it. She died January 29, 1456, according this source.

There's also a town Krk ...
Quote:
The town of Krk is situated about 25 kilometers from the Bridge of Krk once a Roman municipality and the seat of the principles Frangipani, today is the historic center, administrative, political, economic and religious center of the island.

The walls surrounding the city of Krk, ancient, restored several times from the Middle Ages under the direction of the Republic of Venice. They were reinforced in height and thickness, for centuries have protected the lives of citizens but with the change of fighting techniques lost their original significance. Now they are pride of the city.

There are four gates that allow access to the town of Krk, they are open now and invite people to cross them and visit historic buildings and shops with local crafts.The houses outside the walls have been developed in recent decades.
http://www.isoladikrk.com/en/node?page=2

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