Justice and Strength

I tried to do a search and got an OVERWHELMING number of threads, so I'm asking specifically. In the great debate of where Strength and Justice fall in the tarot order, where do you place them and why? I can't make up my mind.

I just use whatever the deck I'm choosing indicates. I use mostly Rider Waite and clones so it's usually Strength 8 and Justice 11.

Same as Grizabella, I use the ordering of the deck I'm working with. In the three main Tarot traditions, RWS is the only one to put Strength at VIII (this was done to make the astrological associations of Strength/Leo and Justice/Libra work); both Thoth and the TdM put Justice at VIII. I tend to work with RWS-based decks most often (although my first was from the TdM tradition), so I suppose the default in my mind is Strength at VIII, but it really is flexible.

I learned Tarot through RWS and clones, so I never really gave it much thought... when I started studying the history of the deck and the rearranging of the two, it sort of illuminated some things for me. Now, I still will leave them in the order the deck has put them in (as previous posters have said), but when I do a reading, if there's a nagging feeling that the number should be flipped then I might pay closer attention to why I'm getting that impression and it can inform a reading.

I do like to read with astrology in mind, so for me it makes sense that they have be reorganized.

LilyanRose said:

I tried to do a search and got an OVERWHELMING number of threads, so I'm asking specifically. In the great debate of where Strength and Justice fall in the tarot order, where do you place them and why? I can't make up my mind.

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Between the 1400s and 1909 (that is for up to 500 years) Justice was eight and Strength was eleven. Arthur Waite, who wasn't an angel but just a human, made a decision to change that in his deck only. Many copy his. Some revert to the traditional numbering.

In practical terms, once you've unsealed the pack and shuffled it, they never go into that order again, so it matters little.

It wasn't specifically Waite who made the switch, he merely followed Golden Dawn custom. Crowley, in the Thoth, put them back where they were in the TdM, but for reasons having to do with his Star/Emperor switch (so he actually moved Justice and Strength forward to their older places).

While I can justify both positions numerologically, kabbalistically, astrologically, etc., I've been using the Thoth for so long that Lust (Strength) as eleven feels more natural. The use of these things is mainly in analyzing and understanding the individual cards, as their numbers and positions are yet more symbols that can be taken under advisement. Just as the Fool's number of Zero is intrinsic to it and its meaning, so with the other cards and their numbers.

German author Banzhaf prefers the TdM's order because of archetypal reasons. He says that the first decade of Majors (excluding the Fool) starts with a male archetype, the Magician, and so the second decade should start with Strength, a female archetype. I always thought this was a very reasonable argument, but there are decks with male strength cards. I wonder if there are old decks with that gender switch.

Personally, I'll go with whatever the deck uses. But with decks like the ones from Baba Studios which have no numbers, I find myself putting Strength at 11 when I reorder the deck (I do that sometimes. Seriously).

I go with the deck I use, but Lust/Strength at 11 seems to me the stronger tradition.

I'm not sure about Banzhaf's reasoning because Strength has often been represented by Hercules (in the emblem tradition).

I have to decide now which cards to use in the Daniloff I bought (and haven't used yet), and I thank you for the question. I think I'll go with the Tdm and Thoth convention. (I like it that Daniloff offers both cards with both numbers and challenges the user to make his own more or less well reasoned choice.)

What I find odd is the hoi polloi has justice 8 strength 11, and it's a pretty direct RWS artwork copy.

Farzon said:

I always thought this was a very reasonable argument, but there are decks with male strength cards. I wonder if there are old decks with that gender switch

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The 1JJ has a male strength card (XI)

I have to have Justice at VIII and Strength at XI.. I've even been known to change the numbers on a deck if I really like the deck..

I like using decks that are based on older traditions like the TdMs and so I use number and element as well as the image on the card to get my card meanings and the way that I read, I often link the Minors to their numerical equivalent Major so all of the 8s have an aspect of balance and of Justice in them.. I see 8 as a number of Universal balance, of reaping what you sow, of harvest so it fits better with Justice than with Strength..

Even with more modern decks though, I often use the numbers and the element to arrive at a meaning so for me, Justice just has to be at number 8.