The "Soprafino Tarot" pattern

[Jewel-ry]

Hi Rusty,

I have a Jonathan Dee book which uses the Ancient Italian Tarot for illustration. When comparing those cards to my own Soprafino (Classic) and assuming I understand what has already been said, it looks like it was a Gumppenberg/Dellarocca reproduction as it has much of the symbolism just mentioned in it. I am sure though that either Mark or Mari will clarify this for you.

J

[filipas]

Rusty Neon wrote:
Hi everyone ... I' curious as to where does the deck photoreproduced as the Lo Scarabeo Ancient Italian Tarot fits within the Soprafino taxonomy.

Hi Rusty Neon,

I don't have this one but I recently received the latest Lo Scarabeo catalog which pictures four of these cards. This is a deck I've not noticed before. According to the catalog, the deck reproduces the 1880 designs of Serravalle Sesia. It looks to me a bit closer to Dellarocca's originals as compared to the Dotti.

- Mark

[Cerulean]

I did a comparison and the majors are very similar, barring coloration and some motifs of plants and leaves.

The Soprafino Tarot, Lo Scarabeo's version can be seen here:

http://www.gambler.ru/sukhty/decks05/d02380/d02380.htm

I compared my Il Menghello Soprafino, the black and white Il Menghello modern Dellarocca tarot and the Ancient Italian in the Jonathan Dee book (An Illustrated Guide to the Tarot) and the Ancient Italian cards (Serraville Sessia 1880).

Here's some cards from the Menghello Dellarocca:

http://www.spiritone.com/~filipas/Ma.../dellaroc.html

The coloring in the Ancient Italian is sometimes an overprinting on otherwise crisp details of the Dellarocca and the Soprafino. While the majors look very similar, I saw the World card shading for the central figure and a bit of staining of red and yellow on the flame to the right of the World figure might make one miss the smoke coming from the torch.

In a comparison of one of the courts, the Knight of Wands in the Ancient Italian has a brighter colored horse, the plants near the horse's feet are small bushes and the title is abbreviated differently than the Dellarocca and Soprafino. The black and white Dellarocca uses French titles and delicate plants on the bottom of the card are only in front of the horse's legs, not in-between. The Ancient Italian abbreviates the title to CAVAL'DI BASTONI and the Soprafino abbreviates the title to CAV.DI BASTONI.

In a quick comparison of two minor cards, I choose the Three and Nine of Coins. The Three of Coins in the Ancient Italian has a very balanced motif of delicate fronds and five-petalled red flowers on top, an Arabic Three on the left and right middle sides and the coins are symmetrically balanced with an ornate blue leafy frond pattern and some sort of decorative yellow brackets sprouting from the center bottom of the card.

The Three of Coins in the Soprafino have two delicate flowers with two leafy petals around the three coins, Roman numerals on the left and right, slightly above the middle of the card and two curving leaves reaching near the bottom of the card.

The Nine of Coins in the Ancient Italian is almost symmetrically balanced. The Nine of Coins in the Soprafino has a variation in spacing and the decorative element in the grouping of coins above and below the center line.

I'd say the Dellarocca black and white follows the Soprafino closely in the Three and Nine of Coins. It would be a close second copy of the design. The Ancient Italian is a close third.

Mari H.

[Cerulean]

From Mark's post/discussion so far--does this list make sense:

A.
1. Dellarocca's 1835 engraved deck has also been reproduced by Solleone in 1981 as Tarocchino Lombardo,

2. Il Meneghello in 1992 as Tarocco Soprafino

3. Lo Scarabeo's Classic Tarot.

B.
1. Teodoro and Edoardo Dotti published their engraved version of the pattern, which has been reproduced as Il Meneghello's Tarocco Italiani

2. Large edition by De Vecchi Editore.

C.
Simplified woodcut reproduction;

1. One version by Gumppenberg can be seen in Kaplan p.360

2. Three versions by Dotti can be seen on pp.369, 373.

3. We also have the Pietro Milesi version (p.361)

4. the Lamperi version (p. 370)

5. P. Negri version (p. 378).

D.
Other stenciled or close reproductions mentioned:

1. Sesia Serraville 1880, published by Lo Scarabeo as Ancient Italian Tarot

2. Dellarocca Tarot by Il Menghello, black and white, 20th century reproduction.

3. Somewhere, samples of Tarocchino Milanese that might fit in under Dotti reproductions?

http://l-pollett.tripod.com/cards65.htm

[Moonbow]

Hi Mark

Well, as I mentioned to you previously, my Soprafino has eventually arrived, so I have been busy catching up with all the information here. I am facinated by your works on the Hebrew Lexicon and I shall be giving this alot of study.

I am still a little confused over some of the differences between the decks but it is becoming clearer. Mine is the limited edition Il Meneghello, published by Gumppenberg (thanks Mimers and Mari). It feels so precious, that I don't know if I can use it - maybe it's for study only.

I hope to post more on this thread when I've got to know the deck a little more.

Moonbow*

[Jewel-ry]

Oh Hi Moonboe!

What took you so long?

You are right! This limited edition Meneghello is very precious, almost too precious to use, its absolutely beautiful isn't it? I have only had mine a couple of days and feel exactly the same way.

So glad you could join us.

Mari,

Can you tell me where you got the black and white Meneghello from? I found myself quite captivated by it in the reading you did for me and think I may invest in one.

J

[filipas]

Jewel-ry wrote:
Mari,

Can you tell me where you got the black and white Meneghello from? I found myself quite captivated by it in the reading you did for me and think I may invest in one.

Hi Jewel-ry,

I would assume Mari was referring to the 1998 Il Meneghello deck titled "Tarocco Della Rocca", whose cards are modern pencil sketches based very closely on the Soprafino (Mari, correct me if I have the wrong deck!). I have scans from this deck posted here:

http://www.SpiritOne.com/~filipas/Ma.../dellaroc.html

This was a limited edition deck but I think it is still available for a reasonable price from Alida.

Thanks,
- Mark

[Mimers]

Originally posted by Moonbow*
Mine is the limited edition Il Meneghello, published by Gumppenberg (thanks Mimers and Mari). It feels so precious, that I don't know if I can use it - maybe it's for study only.
Moonbow*

Moonbow, I am glad to hear you received your deck! I use mine all the time. It is so nice and sturdy.

Isn't it beautiful? I love it.

Mimi

Mark, I have been reviewing your essays as well. Thank you so much for sharing it.

Mimi

[Cerulean]

http://www.trigono.com/tarots/tarocchi-della-rocca.htm.

It translated to about 35.00 and does not have English instructions or even Italian instructions. The box is pretty--you may find the book that you have on the Ancient Italian (Jonathan Dee) to be a help.

And I may break some people's hearts by even suggesting what I'm doing with my copy. The linen stock is tougher than one imagines, but I'm actually doing a very slow project with it.

I am ashamed to say I'm doing slow aged tinting of watercolor and shading with delicate and unusual pens and pencils. I don't recommend this without some work on scans or experiments on similar paper or classes in your chosen media. Once you start with on the linen stock, if you don't have the right tools, you cannot 'revert' back to the delicate details or lift the stains...

So if you become tempted to color, I recommend a copy or scan of one or two and then go to Kinkos and copy on fine paper or textured stock if they have it for your experiment.

Best wishes,

Mari H.

[Jewel-ry]

Oh Mari,

I would never attempt anything like that, you are very brave! The only thing I ever paint is a wall when decorating the house. I can appreciate art, by I am by no means an artist.

Thanks for the information here. I have already ordered the Tarocco Italiano Dotti so that I can compare the differences between it and the Gumppenberg and also have a better idea of what is being said here, but I may well invest in that black and white one too at a later stage.

I dont find myself quite so captivated by the woodcut reproductions.

I am hoping to spend more time this weekend with these decks and Marks Alphabet so may be able to post more later.

Thanks for starting this thread Mark (and for your contributions Mari).

J