Tarot of Ceremonial Magic Study Group - The Magus

ravenest

foolMoon said:
Every men and women is a star, but the star has potential to become a bright one or dying and dead one depending on their spritual fullfillment in life. I am using the astronomical stars in this simile rather than star in other sense. Not sure if they are be relevant, but Astronomy used to be one of my hobbies, and I can relate the Crowley's star and Astronomical stars very well.

Great! Then we have a way of explaining it to you.

Now, those stars that are dead or dying, or being born and growing ... are they all in that state; one or the other ... or are stars 'born', grow have a certain life span for different stars, 'die' a different way depending on what type of star they are, and dissipate, reform or supernova also depending on type.

You have used the analogy of stages of life to types of people and types of wills.

Even us as 'stars' are born, grow old and die .... Thelemites are not immortal and just stay in one state , the same as stars don't do that.

foolMoon said:
As there are billions and billions of stars, there are different people in their sprituality. Crowley wanted us to be brighter star shining above the sky, not the dying ones or dead ones. If one is not spritual or materialist, then he is a dying or dead star forgotten and invisible.

One becomes a brighter star, when one follows the law of Thelema. Do what thou wilt shall be the law.

Again, it is just my understanding, could be wrong. But it makes sense to me at the moment.

That's like saying Crowley didn't want us to be like the old people in the nursing home .

Aeon418

"Have I not free will?" saith the fool;
But the wise know that in all the chains of worlds
There is no creature
That hath any will apart from my One Will.
My Will is free indeed,
and he who knoweth it as the wellspring of his willing
Remaineth free from error.

P.F. Case.

ravenest

foolMoon said:
Not sure if any human in history has been ever free in strict sense. Of course all humans pursue freedom. But they are under severe ristrictions and limitation and prohibitions which are inborn in biological structure, social codes, duties and morality imposed by nature and the society they live in.

They could say they are free but in very limited sense. I am not sure if Thelemic law is all about living as your freedom as such. If it were the case, I feel it is not really saying much.

Because everyone is trying to pursue their freedom anyway even in the limited manner. Where they find a slightest chance, they will do it anyway, be it Thelemic, Kennedian, Freudian or the 60s hippy freedom. They don't need Thelema to tell them they must live by their freedom.

For one example, every men and women eventually all must get old against their will, and one day sometime in their lives die against their will. So are they truly free? I wouldn't think so.

Thelemic law is, to me it is a religion, the deities, what they are, and do.

A religious Thelemite could see death as the greatest freedom. Does not Nuit herself declare it so ?

Zephyros

ravenest said:
A religious Thelemite could see death as the greatest freedom. Does not Nuit herself declare it so ?

I always interpreted the whole death thing as it being a part of life, yet another experience just like any other "death" we experience in day to day life which stems from the complete immersion and ecstasy in every act. "Death, thou shalt yearn for it!" need not be actual death but rather a Hanged Man kind of thing.
I'm explaining it badly, I'm on my phone.

Always Wondering

Zephyros said:
I always interpreted the whole death thing as it being a part of life, yet another experience just like any other "death" we experience in day to day life which stems from the complete immersion and ecstasy in every act. "Death, thou shalt yearn for it!" need not be actual death but rather a Hanged Man kind of thing.
I'm explaining it badly, I'm on my phone.

I think you did fine.

LISTEN AGAIN to thine own voice within thee. Is not Hadit the flame that burns in every heart of man, and in the core of every star? Is not He Life, and the giver of Life? And is not therefore the knowledge of Him the knowledge of Death? For it hath been shown unto thee in many other places how Death and Love be twins.

http://hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib106.html

Always Wondering

Aeon418 said:
"Have I not free will?" saith the fool;
But the wise know that in all the chains of worlds
There is no creature
That hath any will apart from my One Will.
My Will is free indeed,
and he who knoweth it as the wellspring of his willing
Remaineth free from error.

P.F. Case.

I don't know why I don't ponder him more often, but I had a lovely afternoon today with The Book of Tokens. Thanks for the reminder.

ravenest

Abrac said:
I agree Thelema promotes the law of freedom, but I don't really buy the premise that anyone who exercises their free will is practicing Thelema,

Good - as it does promote the law of freedom and it doesnt buy the premise that anyone who exercises their free will is practicing Thelema.

The concept related to freedom in Thelema is termed 'True Will' .... free will is another and different concept.

foolMoon

Always Wondering said:
But that is not what Crowley says, or least writes.

The New and Old Commentaries to Liber AL vel Legis
http://hermetic.com/legis/new-comment/

Your statement also brings to mind a book review Eshelman wrote for a book called Let Your Life Speak. The author was not at all Thelemic. A wonderful little book, by the way. https://www.amazon.com/Let-Your-Lif...eNumber=1&filterByKeyword=holy+guardian+angel

93,
AW

I have not read any general comments on the Thelemic texts, so my understanding is purely from my own recent reading on Book Four, Liber Aba and especially Book of Law. I knew it would be different from others.

That book from your link looks interesting. Thanks for the link.
93

foolMoon

Aeon418 said:
"Have I not free will?" saith the fool;
But the wise know that in all the chains of worlds
There is no creature
That hath any will apart from my One Will.
My Will is free indeed,
and he who knoweth it as the wellspring of his willing
Remaineth free from error.

P.F. Case.

I think problem of Free Will is a huge area in subject of Philosophy and Religious studies.
I have a few books entirely discussing on the topic.

The first question they ask is, wherther free will is possible.

If you say yes, then all the possibilities of Religious beliefs, faith, and even divinations via Tarot, Astrology and I Ching ... Etc etc have no ground.

If you say no, then everything is pre determined. Everyone is acting on the fate and destiny imposed by divine being, so no one is responsible for their actions.

I really don't believe Crowley would have been interested in engaging himself with this type of discussions in Thelema.

foolMoon

ravenest said:
Good - as it does promote the law of freedom and it doesnt buy the premise that anyone who exercises their free will is practicing Thelema.

The concept related to freedom in Thelema is termed 'True Will' .... free will is another and different concept.

Thelemic freedom is, your free decision to have the will to unite with the deity as a Thelemite, or opt out and be a Christian, Buddhist, Hindu or atheist.

Crowley wants you decide on that entirely by your own free will, not by anything else.

It is nothing to do with living freely or going one's own path. Everyone is doing that already.