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RohanMenon  RohanMenon is offline
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I skimmed through the next 3 sections


on marriage, children, brothers. Lots of 'if-then' style rules.
The next section "Violent Deaths" looks interesting, but there is some difficult language here.

It starts with "The opposition of Sun and Moon is not always bad. Only if an approaching malefic beholds the phase or if the malefic casts its rays while it has some relationship with the luminaries does the opposition become bad."

Hmm I didn't know full moon births were considered problematic. Valens corrects this notion, but this seems to presuppose an existing erroneous judgment. I would have thought that a full Moon, other things being equal would be a good condition for the Moon to be in.

More to learn.

For now, if (near) Full Moon and a malefic has an approaching aspect to either of the lights, or a separating aspect, but with some relationship (domicile?) to the lights, this is a 'bad' sign"

I can live with that. I think one of my friends has this condition in his natal chart, I'll dig it up.
Top   #151
RohanMenon  RohanMenon is offline
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In the next part (of section 40, Violent Deaths) Valens makes an argument against evaluating *all* parts of life from a single planet ('the ruler of the nativity'). Instead, he says, one planet rules the 'basis' and another rules property and death. (the general principle he *seems* to elucidate here seems to be that while there maybe one planet that gives the overall 'tone' of life, different planets, ruling different houses also have their influence)

"Instead, the unfavourably situated star creates the lesser man, but the ruler of rank and livelihood, found at an angle and receiving the chronocratorship,renders the man illustrious. If so, then this star which makes the man fortunate, if found at an angle or in operative places, keeps him fortunate during its own chronocratorship.

But when the star comes to have another star which causes disease, infirmity, or some other critical affliction in superior aspect or in opposition,then it will yield and its influence will weaken. Many other noteworthy things happen in the life of man, things which come about not through the activity or operation of one house ruler, but through the activity of many"

The last sentence is key . Valens goes on to repeat this idea in a different form,

"If anyone researches thoroughly the Places and the house rulers, he will determine quite easily the area in which the nativity is fortunate and the area in which it is unfortunate"

He then goes on to deal with violent deaths.

First a few 'if x then y' rules.

01. If the ruler of the New/Full Moon in a nativity is turned away from its sign, or unfavorably situated (I interpret this as in fall, detriment,) and aspected by a malefic it results in a violent death.

Question: Does this rule apply only to new/full moons or to the Moon in general?

02. If Saturn, Mars, or Mercury (?? huh why Mercury) is situated in the sign of the Moon on the fortieth day (huh? what does forty days have to do with anything?)

03. Malefics in the descendant or the sign preceeding the descendant bring violent death or diseases that cause miserable deaths

04. The 8th place from the ascendant has the same influence on the cause of death, as does the 8th place from the Lot of Fortune. These places and their rulers foretell the nature of death. (this seems to be the general principle)

Next, there is a listing of which sign causes what kind of death. As far as I can see the main principle is that the 8th house from Sign X (let this be called Sign Y) 'destroys' sign X. In other words, if the Ascendant is Aries, Scorpio is the 'destroying sign' and so on.

thus

"Aries is destroyed by Scorpio. Since they are both domiciles of Mars, Mars is a destroyer of itself.

Therefore [Aries] causes suicides, those who throw themselves from heights,and those ready for death; accomplices in crime, bandits, and murderers (i.e.those who bring a cause of death on themselves), plus those perishing from animal attacks, from fires, or from collapsing buildings. [It also causes men to die] from animals, bleeding, or attacks."

In addition, take into account the nature of each sign (so watery for Pisces ?) and that of any planets in aspect, each of which will add its nature to the diagnosis.

Thus malefics in aspect to the Places ( I interpret this to mean 8th from ascendant and Fortune) cause violent deaths. Benefics (in aspect to the Places of Death) indicate disease, fever, or injury.

A slightly confusing example follows

"For example: Gemini is destroyed by Capricorn and Aquarius by Virgo, i.e. Mercury by Saturn and Saturn by Mercury. Now if these stars have the relationship of opposition or square in a nativity, they cause men to have short lives or a wretched death, since the Life giver is in opposition to the ruler of Death.

If they have no relationship, but simply behold each other without being intheir own domiciles, they bring setbacks, trials, exile, and other temporarymisfortunes. (Consider the arrangement of Mars and Mercury as having the same effects.)
"

I *think* what Valens is saying here is
Ascendant is Gemini (so 8th from Gemini is Capricorn).
Fortune is in Aquarius (so 8th is Virgo).
(I'm assuming this, otherwise this example makes no sense. Why select Gemini and Aquarius in the first place)

*then*

we have Mercury as Lord of Ascendant (and so life giver) and Saturn as lord of 8th.
From Fortune we have Saturn as Life giver, and Mercury as cause of death.

Now examine the relationship between these. If in opposition (and, I presume square) they bring violent deaths."

I have *no idea* what Mars (consider the arrangement of Mars and Mercury) has to do with anything here. (Minderwiz, help)

What I am still somewhat confused by is

The generic 'examine 8th from native and fortune and their lords' seems to be generic advice for *all* deaths.


There must be extra factors which distinguishes *violent* deaths. (all people don't die violently).

Are these extra factors only those detailed in 'if then rules' 01 through 03 + 'malefics/benefics aspecting the 8th' and 'life and death lords in opposition'? (so 5 checks for violent deaths)

What would indicate 'died peacefully in his sleep, surrounded by friends and family'?

Let us try an example (next post)
Top   #152
RohanMenon  RohanMenon is offline
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First example for violent death (see last post for the theory/evaluation rules)

. As usual, I'll try my hand first, and then see what Valens has to say.

Ascendant = Scorpio (so 8th is Gemini)
Fortune = Leo (so 8th is Pisces)

Just from this information we know we should look at the signs Gemini and Pisces and their rulers (Mercury and Jupiter) and any planets in them, plus any of the 'violent death rules.

The remaining placements are

Sun, Mars, Venus in Cancer
Moon in Pisces
Mercury in Leo (note: 8th Lord from Ascendant in Place of Fortune)
Jupiter in Aries (note: 8th Lord from Fortune in 6th from Ascendant)
Saturn in Leo (note: same Place as Fortune)

First examine the 8th houses from Fortune and Ascendant, and their Lords.
From ascendant Scorpio, Lord Mars, 8th is Gemini, Lord is Mercury

Is there a connection between Mercury and Mars?
No Mercury is in Leo and Mars in Cancer. Inconjunct

From Fortune Leo, (lord Sun) 8th is Pisces (lord Jupiter).
Is there an aspect between Sun and Jupiter?
Yes! There is a square between Jupiter and Sun. So one indicator of a violent death.

Now running through the 'violent death' rules.

01. If the ruler of the New/Full Moon in a nativity is turned away from its sign, or unfavorably situated (I interpret this as in fall, detriment,) and aspected by a malefic it results in a violent death.

The Moon is not New or Full. Doesn't apply.

02. If Saturn, Mars, or Mercury (?? huh why Mercury) is situated in the sign of the Moon on the fortieth day (huh? what does forty days have to do with anything?)

I don't know how to calculate what the fortieth day sky looks like from this horoscope

03. Malefics in the descendant or the sign preceeding the descendant bring violent death or diseases that cause miserable deaths

From ASC Descendant is Gemini. There seem to be no malefics here or in Taurus.
From Fortune Descendant is Pisces. No malefics here or in Aquarius. so does not apply.

So essentially there is only the square between Jupiter(Lord of 8th from Fortune) and Sun.(Lord of Fortune). If this holds, the death will be somehow Piscean.

Let us see what Valens says

"the Lot of Fortune in Leo, the [8th] Place of Death in Pisces.


The Moon was in this Place, and Saturn was in conjunction with the Lot of
Fortune. The ruler [of Leo], the Sun, was with Mars in Cancer, a wet sign. This
person died in the bath, drowned in the water. Mars was in opposition to the
full Moon [Capricorn], and Saturn, the ruler [of the full Moon], was turned
away. Therefore he died violently.

"

Hmm so
"Moon in this place" == Moon is in the Place of Death (From Fortune)
"Saturn in conjunction with Fortune" == This seems to be not directly related to calculating violent death potential.
"The ruler [of Leo], the Sun, was with Mars in Cancer, a wet sign"
Hmm the Sun is the ruler of *life*. What does this have to do with nature of death?

"Mars was in opposition to the full Moon [Capricorn], and Saturn, the ruler [of the full Moon], was turned away. "

This took some figuring out. The Moon is *not* full in the chart.
But I *think* what Valens is saying is (Minderwiz, please confirm!) is that the sign where the Moon would be *if full* , i.e, the seventh from the Sun (Here Sun is in Cancer, so the sign where the Moon would be *if full* is Capricorn, with Lord Saturn) has its Lord (Saturn in Leo) averse to it! Aha! so the "Full Moon" in the rules don't apply only to those nativities with full or new Moons. Interesting.

so redo of violent death rule #1

"01. If the ruler of the New/Full Moon in a nativity is turned away from its sign, or unfavorably situated (I interpret this as in fall, detriment,) and aspected by a malefic it results in a violent death."

ruler turned away. CHECK
aspected by malefics. CHECK

ok this + the square between Jupiter and Sun strongly indicate violent death. and drowning in a bath corresponds to "Pisces nature"

(note the ruler of the *new Moon* ie same sign as Sun = Cancer, so Moon, is in Pisces and *not* turned away)

All good. Very enlightening!
Top   #153
RohanMenon  RohanMenon is offline
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Example 2 (for violent death)

Ascendant = Leo
Sun = Pisces (8th)
Moon = Sagittarius (5th)
Mercury = Pisces (8th)
Venus = Pisces (8th)
Mars = Taurus (10th)
Jupiter = Aries (9th)
Saturn = Virgo (2nd)

Lot of Fortune = Taurus (10th)


From Ascendant(Leo):
Life giver = Sun in natal 8th, Pisces
8th Lord = Jupiter in natal 9th
No aspect between Sun and Jupiter.

From Fortune (Taurus)
Life giver = Venus in Pisces, 11th form Fortune
8th (from Fortune) Lord = Jupiter in Aries.
No aspect between Venus and Jupiter.

No indications of violent death so far, but notice that Jupiter is Lord of the 8th in both cases.
So there is something Jupiterian about the native's death. And perhaps the death is of the nature of one or both of Pisces or Sagittarius (ruled by Jupiter) or Aries (where Jupiter is located)

Now applying the rules of violent death.

Rule 01 : If the ruler of the New/Full Moon in a nativity is turned away from its sign, or unfavorably situated (I interpret this as in fall, detriment,) and aspected by a malefic it results in a violent death.

Full Moon position of chart is Virgo, since Sun in Pisces.
Ruler Mercury is in Pisces - in detriment. "unfavorably situated" CHECK.
Saturn is in Virgo opposing Mercury so "aspected by Malefic" CHECK.

additionally,
" if Mercury is in opposition to the full Moon and has malefics in aspect, it brings a bad cause of death"

Full Moon position of chart is Virgo. Mercury is in Pisces, and so is in oppostion. CHECK. Saturn opposes from Virgo CHECK.



New Moon Position is Pisces, since Sun in Pisces
Jupiter is in Aries. Inconjunct. So 'ruler turned away" CHECK. No aspect my malefics.

Here we have the first indication (multiple indications!) of violent death. MNote the repeated influence of Jupiter.

Rule 02 : If Saturn, Mars, or Mercury are located in the sign [of the Moon] on the fortieth day they indicate violent death.

I have no idea what "fortieth day" etc has to do with anything, or how to calculate the 40 th day for this horoscope. Skipped.

Rule 03. Malefics in the descendant or the sign preceeding the descendant bring violent death or diseases that cause miserable deaths

From the ascendant, descendant is Virgo. Saturn is presen there. CHECK
From Fortune, descendant is Sagittarius and sixth is Scorpio. No malefics there.

So overall, there are multiple indications of violent death. And a repeated emphasis on Jupiter. So I'd say that the native died by judicial decision (Morin mentioned this in one of his examples), or perhaps euthanized (Jupiter as healer/doctor) or through overindulgence (Jupiterian trait).

Now let us see what Valens says
"Mars was located so that it ruled Daimon [Scorpio] and was in opposition to it. The [8th] Place of Death was in Sagittarius, and the Moon was there and had Saturn in superior aspect in the sign of the full Moon [Virgo]. Likewise Mercury, the ruler of the full Moon, was in opposition [to Virgo and Saturn]. The native was beheaded.

ok I missed the Daimon, and while I noted the "Saturn in superior aspect" I didn't factor it in.

Still, close enough. I didn't see the 'beheading' but if the beheading happened via Judicial order, then the Jupiter influence comes through. Since Jupiter is in the 9th, there might even be a religious angle.If he got his head chopped off during a battle etc, then this isnt' a good evaluation of the chart.
Top   #154
RohanMenon  RohanMenon is offline
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Example # 3 (For violent death)


Ascendant = Libra
Lot of Fortune = Gemini (9th)
Sun = Cancer (10th)
Moon = Pisces (6th)
Mercury = Gemini (9th)
Venus = Leo (11th)
Mars = Gemini (9th)
Jupiter = Capricorn (4th)
Saturn = Gemini (9th)

From Ascendant (Libra) eighth is Taurus. Lifegiver = Lord of 1st = Venus . Lord of 8th (Taurus) is also Venus. In 11th (Leo)

From Fortune (Gemini) eighth is Capricorn. Lifegiver = Lord of 1st = Mercury in the 9th. Lord Saturn in 9th (Gemini) . Conjunction. First indication of violent death. Death probably has a Capricorn characteristic.

From Valens.

"Gemini is destroyed by Capricorn, i.e. Mercury by Saturn. Some men die violently troubled by black bile, are attacked by painful cramps or are harmed in damp places by beasts or by crawling things. Some are condemned to death imprisoned, or suffocated. Some are attacked by bandits or the enemy. Some are poisoned—because of the wet quality [of the sign]."

Now applying the rules of violent death.

Rule 01 : If the ruler of the New/Full Moon in a nativity is turned away from its sign, or unfavorably situated (I interpret this as in fall, detriment,) and aspected by a malefic it results in a violent death.

In this chart, Full Moon position = 7th from Sun = 7th from Cancer = Capricorn.
Lord of Full Moon Position Saturn is in Gemini. Inconjunct Capricorn. And conjuncted by Mars.
The second indication of violent death.

New Moon position = same sign as Sun = Cancer. Lord Moon is in Pisces. Does aspect the position (trine). Squared by both Saturn and Mars. I'd call this borderline.

additionally,
" if Mercury is in opposition to the full Moon and has malefics in aspect, it brings a bad cause of death"

Here Mercury is in Gemini and does not aspect the full Moon position (Capricorn). In its own house. But on the other hand does conjunct both malefics.
Still, probably can be ignored as a death bringer.

Rule 02 : If Saturn, Mars, or Mercury are located in the sign [of the Moon] on the fortieth day they indicate violent death.

I have no idea what "fortieth day" etc has to do with anything, or how to calculate the 40 th day for this horoscope. Skipped.

Rule 03. Malefics in the descendant or the sign preceeding the descendant bring violent death or diseases that cause miserable deaths

From ascendant (Libra), 7th is Aries, 6th is Pisces. Neither has malefics in it.
From Fortune (Taurus) 7th is Scorpio and 6th is Libra. No malefics there.

So two indications of violent death

1. Lords of Fortune (Gemini) and 8th from Fortune (Capricorn) are conjunct
2. Lord of the Full Moon position (Capricorn) , Saturn, is in Gemini, so inconjunct Capricorn and conjunct Mars.


So it looks like a Capricorn/Gemini flavored death. Let's see what Valens says.

"In this sign Saturn, Mercury, and Mars attended each other, being destroyers of each other, and they were in aspect with the Moon [square]. Likewise the ruler [Saturn] of the full Moon [Capricorn] was turned away, and Jupiter in the [8th] Place of Death and in opposition to the Sun was not able to help. The native was beheaded"

ok I confess I have no idea how the mode of death (Beheading) could have been predicted. I note most of the same chart features as Valens, but I can't converge to specifics (here beheading)
Top   #155
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Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
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It's a day chart, Mars is the most dangerous planet and it's in the same house as Fortune. Mars is a significator of cutting or severing. The first house (from Fortune in this case) has significatisignificatiofor the head (analagous to Aries). So the most likely cause is that his head was severed. Of 9
Top   #156
RohanMenon  RohanMenon is offline
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Ah Minderwiz


I've missed your penetrating insight these last few days.
Thank You for that nugget on Mars.
I need to study/focus more.
Hopefully your internet woes are ended, and things are otherwise fine at your end.
Top   #157
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Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
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I now have a brand new modem, giving real high speed broadband. I saw your comment on fortieth day of the Moon. I've seen reference to it, so I'll chase it up and get back to you.
Top   #158
RohanMenon  RohanMenon is offline
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example # 4 (violent death)

ascendant: aries
sun, mercury, venus, mars, jupiter in capricorn (10th)
moon in aquarius
saturn in taurus

lot of fortune not given, but should be in either aries or taurus, depending on the exact degrees of sun, moon,ascendant. in either case, conjunct a malefic . mars in aries, saturn in taurus.

so what we can infer from this chart is
day chart with a very powerful mars, (in 10th, exalted, ruling and squaring the ascendant, 'to the left').

eighth house is scorpio. ruled by mars, so mars has something to do with death. opposed by saturn. sextiled by mars. eighth house thus has aspects from both malefics

ruler of full moon sign (cancer) is moon (in aquarius). turned away. squared by saturn(in Taurus), a malefic. aha our first 'hit'.

ruler of new moon sign (capricorn) is saturn (in taurus). not turned away. But *is* trined by Mars (from Capricorn) . so 'aspected by malefic'. second 'hit'..

mercury (in aries) is not in opposition to the full moon sign (cancer). but it does square it. Is this a borderline hit for violent death(i confess i don't understand the logic of looking for *Mercury*'s opposition to the full moon sign. when did mercury become a universal malefic?)

there are no malefics in the descendant (libra) or sign preceeding the descendant. (virgo)

so essentially two 'hits' from valens's rules, based on the Full Moon New Moon signs, + generic dominance of malefics in the horoscope, with both aspecting the 8th.

valens says the native was beheaded.
Top   #159
RohanMenon  RohanMenon is offline
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Example 5 of violent death

Ascendant = Capricorn
Lot of Fortune = Virgo
Sun = Aquarius
Moon = Gemini
Mercury = Capricorn
Venus = Aquarius (2nd)
Mars = Cancer (7th)
Jupiter = Pisces (3d)
Saturn = Scorpio (11th)

From Ascendant (Capricorn) 8th is Leo. Ruler Sun in Aquarius (2nd). Ascendant Ruler (Life giver) Saturn in Scorpio (8th). Ruler of Life trines Ruler of Death.

From Fortune (Virgo, so Ruler = Mercury in the 1st) 8th is Aries (4th). Ruler (of death) Mars in Cancer (7th). Ruler of Life opposes Ruler of Death.


So two indications for violent death, with life givers having aspects to the rulers of death. But the trine is a good aspect, so not sure what that means.


The New Moon position is Aquarius in the second. Ruler Saturn in Scorpio is not averse, but is squared by Mars. 3d indicator

The Full Moon position is Leo. (7th from Sun). Ruler Sun is not averse, but is in detriment, and squared by Saturn. 4th indicator of violent death.

Mercury in the first (Capricorn) is not in opposition to the Full Moon Sign (Leo)

There is a malefic (Mars) in the descendant (Cancer) who also happens to be in fall. Squared by Saturn. Fifth indicator.

so five distinct indicators of violent death. This one is a doozy.

From the 8th houses from Ascendant and Fortune, I'd expect a death of the nature of one or both of Leo and Aries. Let's see what Valens says.


"The rulers [Mars Mercury] of these places were in opposition to each otherand in wet signs; furthermore Mars was in the Descendant. The native was roasted while relaxing in the bath."

(!!!!! how does *that* work. Roasted while relaxing in the bath lol lol)
Top   #160

 





 


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