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Planet Series: The SUN & MOON relationship -- a PARTICIPATION thread.

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Planet Series: The SUN & MOON relationship -- a PARTICIPATION thread.


In this thread I want to do two things:
** I want to offer some views about the Sun and Moon in a relationship sense, how they work together.
** I also want to use some of the chart data posted previously by the participants to illustrate some of these themes -- hopefully with that person providing feedback about what is said.

To start this thread off, I will talk about the Sun-Moon cycle and I will utilize both aspects and phases as a means of defining the many relationships that seem useful in chart interpretation. Now, I am also going to try to avoid the repetition of text book meanings -- each of you can look those up yourselves. I merely wish to get your thinking processes engaged.

SUN CONUNCT MOON and MOON IN THE 1st "PERFORMER" PHASE
At this point in the Sun-Moon cycle the Moon is nowhere to be seen in the night sky. Prior to and at your birth moment, you experienced a phase where the Moon was approaching the Sun (as viewed from Earth). We can look at this point as meaning that the Moon was blocking the Sun's energy, that the Moon was consumed by the Sun's energy, that the two were combining into something new and different from their indiviudal meanings.

I have noted in several charts that new moon or eclipse babies and, later as young adults, have a curious lack of outwardly obvious energy. They seem quiet and "laid back" when you meet them. Yet, this stage is often claimed to be indicative of people whose actions cause them to be at odds with those around them, whose emotional make-up (moon) is such that they act impetuously (sun) and in their own immediate self-interests. This causes them to become the focus of other peoples attention.

I have also noted in several charts that an angular Moon or angular Sun-Moon pattern equates to autism, another way of acting out in ones life such that the person's actions cause consequences that others have to take note of.

Whenever the Sun and Moon are at/near conjunction, or when the Moon natally is within the first 45 degrees following the Sun (we see this in the sky at evening time as a crescent moon), that I initially view the person as some form of "performer" or person who acts in some ways in a very un-inhibited manner.

SUN SEMI-SQUARE MOON (opening semi-square) & 2nd "WORKER" PHASE
When the Moon has moved ahead of the Sun by 45 degrees up to 90 degrees, this phase is called the Worker Phase. One seems to be involved in breaking free of the past -- the way that parent lived and acted, the type of child-hood education and family practices learned when younger, or the way that ones culture and homeland acted. The effort seems to be to establish one's own identify.

In this phase, one may have reached (at time of birth) a position where the Moon was 45 degrees ahead of the Sun (a semi-square), is approaching a square at 90 degrees, or is near a sextile aspect (60 degrees). While near the 45 degree angle, one may just find it an uncomfortable part of their life to want to be themselves, near the 60 degree angle they may focus more on understanding the way their parents lived and worked and why things have to now change, while near the 90 degree aspect they take more obious action and rebellious approachs to re-shaping their lives. In this phase I would be sensitive to assessing the SUN-MOON relationship relative to the classical aspect the Moon was nearest, but would keep the overall theme of "working to change oneself" in mind.

SUN SQUARE MOON and the "ACTIVIST" PHASE.
The opening square aspect is well described in the text books. The Sun's will and identifty is challenged by the Moons emotional responses, habits and needs. This works out in boy-girl relationships, in health issues, in social and work formats as forms of conflict. This conflict is often one-sided as the person plunges into things and forces his values or needs onto others, and this may be very inconsistent in its application.

As a phase, this lasts from the 90 degree to the 135 degree area ahead of the Sun. So, this phase covers the square, the trine and the square-and-a-half aspects. Are there conflicts in this group of aspects relative to the phases' meaning of "Activist" wherein the person plunges into self-expression? Perhaps not. The square is accepted by all as signifying a struggle -- this meaning fits. The trine is generally seen as helping something function smoothly, with ease. Consider this; the person in this phase with a trine aspect may not see his/her adverse impact on others but just plows ahead in an oblivious way, trying to accomplish his/her tasks in his/her manner and expecting others to follow sutie. This is a different view of the trine aspect, isn't it?

Finally, the square and a half aspect of 135 degrees. As this portion of the Sun-Moon cycle is approach or is found in the natal chart, we know we are dealing with someone who symbolically has challenged the system, has had a time of getting away with questionable behavior, and now has to again make adjustments -- this time as if he/she had prior experience. At this phase or aspect we can perhaps assume that the chart owner has become aware that he/she needs to take on new tactics and find smarter, better ways to achieve things in the manner they have been using or are using.

So, I'll leave this topic at this point. Those of you who have these aspects or whose Sun-Moon phase is covered in this post may want to express your views of how you work out these SUN-MOON things. Dave
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Who has what . . .


In this coverage of the Sun-Moon relationships I have talked of both aspects and cycle-phases. Its now time, having covered the Moon and the Sun seperately, as well as starting to look at their relationship, to start using the participant's charts or chart data to compare to what I have said earlier.

Whether there is a classical aspect such as a conjunction, opposition, trine, square, semi-square or sesquiquadrate (135 degrees), or one of the many "minor" aspects such as sextiles, bi-quintiles, etc., there is always a relationship between any pair of astrological bodies. That's where the cycle-phase comes in. The point is that the two "lights" of the chart are so important that we have to start with their relationship, no matter how the chart presents it to us! This is so important!

**Al Si'ra has the Moon 39 degrees ahead of the Sun, not a classical aspect but a PERFORMER PHASE relationship. Instinctively, his actions and behavior will tend to express itself in such a way as to make him noticed by others. This form of "being noticed" is quite different from Michael Jackson the singer and entertainer who has Sun opposite Moon. M.J. grew up seeking one-on-one approval from anyone he interacted with, going to great lengths to show off. Al Si'ra's actions are a result of life-style and personality, what is done happens to disrupt or call attention from others. This is the Sun expressing its will without the Moon being in a strong position to reflect the views of others or to offer a perspective of interaction between others that can be compared to the self's own way of behaving. This type of Performer may not be aware or caring of the way in which others see him/her. This phase represents just "being", just expressing the exhuberance of life. When we see that the Sun is near the IC of the chart and the Moon is in the 4th house area, we see that personal values, beliefs and early childhood training were likely a strong influence and supports this cycle-phase.

** Star Lover is an example of the 45 to 90 phase, the Worker phase, with an angle of seperation of 77 degrees. This also is not a classical aspect, so we have to look at the cycle-phase to learn about the Sun-Moon interaction.
Sun is at/near the 2nd house cusp, the Moon is in the 4th house, so one's personal values and efforts to achieve stability and place within the community will be strong. Given this phase, the Worker phase, achieving stability and a substantial personal environment is probably related to a struggle to break from the past -- perhaps the parents were poor or had relocated their home such that early upbringing left Star Rover with a sense that some important things were lacking. Or current beliefs are just at odds with parental beliefs and values. In any case, something of this sort is indicated and will be used to clue us in on other aspects of the chart for either refinement of meaning or changes in our assessment. But, this is where we would start from.

This covers those people and charts who have been addressed in the earlier thread about Sun-Moon aspects and phases. They and others are free to comment and ask questions.

Remember, at this stage, I am not trying to provide copious understanding and bits of factual information to be melded into a whole story. This is not like the Tarot process. Initially, when first looking at a chart, I am looking for clues as to what the person's overall life theme is. The Sun-Moon pair provides a portion of this theme. Thats all. If i come away from this process with just one summary sentance of likely theme-meaning, that is all I need. I am trying to gather a few specifics, not a large number of generalities. Dave.
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Hi Dave,

Just wondering what type of relationship it is called when the Moon is behind the sun but still in sextile (I think).

Thanks
x Huredriel
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Other phases . . .


When the Moon is less than 45 degrees behind the Sun and catching up with the Sun, the Moon is in the PROPHET phase. When the Moon is between 90 degrees (closing square) and 45 degrees behind the Sun and catching up with the Sun, the Moon is in the CHANGER phase. We will be covering these soon. Dave.
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re moon worker phase/moon in 4th


this is a little above my head but i had to say that i totally agree with your description of this from personal experience - indeed my parents were poor and we did emigrate when i was around 5 years old to this country with very little money and they had to struggle

the other thing mentioned is true too - i have spent most of my adult life trying to break free of my parents and/or cultural influence - something i am only just beginning at age 45 to manage - it was like whatever i did or wanted had to be passed against the test of would they approve of it/would it upset them (though i have to say i think most of it was in my mind though it has left me in between a rock and a hard place for many years) - it's something which i think will never go away to be honest but it is lessening more and more now
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Thank you


Thank you star-lover for sharing that information. It will give the participants the confidence to better adapt to the ways I'm teaching them. Its hard for astrological students and early-learners to see astrology as being "simple." in your example it was the very brief meaning that I gave for the Sun-Moon phase, pluse the location of the Sun and Moon by "house" that made up the rational for the simple statement I made. No signs, no complex aspects, no rulerships, no dignities and determents or day-night houses, asteroids or anything. Just some very simple ideas using very simple pieces of the puzzle.

As we go along, I may or may not be correct with others to this degree of specificness, but the general shape or meaning will be true. The idea is find a simple specific one or two items and to then build upon them using similar techniques. We may refine and adjust our understanding as we go through the steps, but we continue in this manner. Again, thank you for sharing. Dave
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More on Sun-Moon aspects and phases


Once we start to close in on the full moon position we see more light in the early evening and mid-night sky. The moon illuminates more, the shadows are more intense and in contrast to the brighter moonshine. The metaphore also applies to our Sun-Moon awareness -- the Sun becomes more important in terms of the reflected light, the Moon becomes more interesing but less mysterious in terms of fearing the night, being misled by dim shadows.

Once we are reach the sesquiquadrate (square and a half or 135 degree aspect) we have left behind the supposedly easy trine. All that is left to pass over is the 135 degree aspect and the inconjunct aspect. We may or may not actually have these aspects but we are in the Sun-Moon phase that contains them -- this is the Analyst Phase.

The ANALYST PHASE person seeks methods to fit his/her needs, asks the profound question "why?" and eliminates ideas and practices that are wasteful. How does the 135 and 150 degree aspects fit into this overall picture? The 135 degree aspect, as promulgated by Ebertin's research and some 80 years of practice and affirmation, is a hard and challenging aspect, It struggles not with forgetting the past of our parents and heritage but with the immaturity and earlier-in-this-life experiences of yourself. Its a working smarter, not working harder aspect. Its work with some appreciation of the past -- not dislike of the past. Its a growing awareness aspect.

The inconjunct aspect signifies "adjustments" and "refinements" as a prelude to reaching the opposition point, the confrontation point, the promise of partnership and commitment. Its a time to practice and achieve "getting it right for once."

Following the Analyst Phase, the Sun will find the Moon at its full moon position or past that -- anywhere from 180 degrees to 225 degrees is what is called the SEEKER phase. By now the Moon has reached its full point and still lights up the whole night untill dawn comes. We can explore the night just as easily as the day. In this phase, we have the 180 degree aspect, the opposition, and the closing 210 degree closing inconjunct aspect. What does the Seeker phase claim to offer? Illumination or instability, a crises in either knowing or in doing. Wizzle had used the word "lunacy" -- a condition that we associate with the full moon. This was thought of, not so long ago, as the time for werewolves and those in asylumns to cry out in dispair and rage. While not seen as such by most people today, we still biologically react to this stage of the Moon through increased police arrests and crime, difficulty with surgery due to blood flow and low clotting levels, people acting stranger than normal as measured by many social institutions.

The opposition suggests male-versus-female views, arguments, heated passions, easily triggered habit patterns. Normally in astrology we see this 180 degree aspect as representing partnerships or enemies, projection or acceptance, offerings or denials. It is a very polarizing aspect.

The inconjunct, a minor aspect, is actually a "healing" or improvement aspect for the opposition. Again, adjustments and refinements are offered but this time it applies not to the self but to the relationship -- whatever kind of relationship it may be.

Following all of this, the Moon perceptually decreases in size and does not appear in the early evening sky. It spans the late night and intrudes into our daylight morning hours -- a sort of carry over from the night reminding us of our experiences there and then. At the 225 degree point ahead of the Sun, we enter the BELIEVER phase, a phase that I refer to as the HONEST MAN phase. We have two important "closing" aspects in this phase; first the closing square and a half phase, later the 240 degree point (ahead of the Sun) which is the closing trine. The Believer is a teacher, one who brings messages to others, one who is or tries to be articulate and convincing.

The 225 degree point or opposition-plus-a-square-and-a-half brings us to a full appreciation of all that society has accomplished and helps us recognize what we can contribute as we stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before us. "I have seen the light, and it is good!" proclaims the Believer. And he/she insists on showing you the light. He seeks to convince and to demonstrate his/her truths. The Beleiver will be insistant and forceful.

At the closing trine point the Believers views, tactics and skills become quite polished. For better or worse in terms of the beliefs held, the Believer moves convincingly ahead. Charm, assuredness, capability all help him/her to win at any cost, for any reason. Right is might.

I'm running out of time. I have an appointment, but later tonight I will review the participants that have posted their data and we will use them to further illustrate some of these points. Dave.
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My moon is in the analyst phase. This is all very interesting. I may have to take up this technique :-)
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Examples of Sun-Moon interpretations


Now that I'm back I'll pick up on the Sun-Moon phase interpetations.

** Wizzle has a Moon that is 167 degrees ahead of the Sun, not a classical aspect. So, when there is no aspect, and this is often the case, we can use cycle phases to aid us. Wizzle has a Sun-Moon phase of ANALYST. I had noted that "The ANALYST PHASE person seeks methods to fit his/her needs, asks the profound question "why?" and eliminates ideas and practices that are wasteful." If we note that the Sun is in the 4th house of starts and endings, of traditional values and beliefs -- we can expect the wilful Sun to want to utilize these core values. With the Moon in the 10th house of recognition, goals and achievement we can expect the moon to reflect this. After all, if the Moon is approaching a full moon position, even if not there in fact, house-wise this is a "full" opposition. So we might say that Wizzle has complete a life's project of making adjustments and getting herself and her surroundings pretty much the way she would like them -- not yet perfect, but far more than adequate, and true to herself.

** Paradoxx is a "late" example of the SEEKER phase. The Moon has moved past the full opposition and is actually closing in on the marker point for the next phase -- only 10 degrees away. This makes it a little uncertain and is also indicative of real-life astrology. We might be right, we might be wrong, what to do? Actually, we go with the best shot, nail it down, and then see if we need to make an adjustment later as we move on. This isn't rocket science, its an art form. Given that Paradoxx is indeed approaching the Believer Phase -- which I call the Honest Man Phase -- lets assume a level of maturity and clarity and opt for the more positive meanings of those I gave earier; Illumination or instability, a crises in knowing or in doing seems to be an ever-repeating pattern of learning. Since the Moon is also the public and the past, we might want to refine the interpretation to say that Paradoxx has (or feels) obligations to live up to high expectations, or has set a personal set of challenges that requires striving for high achievements relating to what is believed.

EDITED AREA
** Crystelle, who just joined our data listing, is our FIRST example of the BELIEVER Phase. Sun at 23 Sag, Moon at 13 Leo yields a seperation of 110 degrees, putting the Moon 250 degrees ahead of the Sun, past the 225 degree cycle-phase point. Note the Sun in the 5th house area, the Moon in the 1st house area. Creativeness, one's own or in support of others, could be a key idea. As a teacher of some sort, Crystelle (EDITED to remove Paradoxx's name which was wrongly referred to here) would need to show the first house Moon, perhaps by being visible, being an emotional leader, an enthusiast for what is offered to the world. One on one contacts would be expected. Perhaps "teacher" should be modified to "counselor" or "guide" of some sort. We have to note the 5th house and 1st house linkage --children, school, artistic work, a critic? Something along those lines would fit.

** rcb30872 also has this Sun-Moon phase, the Sun being 101 degrees behind the Sun and 259 degrees ahead -- getting close to the next phase. Since Sun and Moon are positioned differently in this chart, we will have a different interpretation. Sun in the 8th house suggests one who has a high interest in shared property, the inner workings of other peoples minds. The Moon on the IC/4th house cusp points to a need to follow ones basic beliefs and personal values, all that was learned at/near home and/or in the early years. Traditional values for the Moon, death/taxes/inheritance (using the classic 8th house meanings) would point to an antique dealer, museum worker in antiquities, insurance adjuster, estate managers -- all symbolic of the combination of these two houses. Interesting END OF EDIT.

Again, in summary, all we are seeking to do here is to develop some starting concepts using the two most important factors in the chart. These can be reasonable and may often be close. They can also not be relevant, but they give us something to build upon. NOW WE NEED TO CONSIDER, FOR FUTURE REFERENCE, WHAT HAPPENS IF WE END UP WITH SEVERAL SPECIFICS THAT TOTALLY CLASH WITH EACH OTHER?

We don't sweat it. Half the time the inconsistency is real, the person of the chart has multiple aspects to his/her life. Most of the remaining times, it only requires some minor adjustments to bring it all together. And every once in awhile someone doesn't live their chart! Yes, they don't fit their chart.

When we run into these rarities we step back and ask some basic questions. We may find that they are a Lunar person, responding the each new moon planetary pattern as it fits into their natal chart. Sometimes we find a progressed chart or a solar return chart (which is a solar cycle based chart), which works. Thats the way astrology can work on occassion. I'd be interested in hearing other stories of astrology that doesn't work, as well as feedback on this thread about the astrology that does work. Dave
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More info:

Sun is 23Aries in the 3rd. Moon is 7Lib in the 8th conjunct Pluto (within 2 degrees). This would make me an analyst with a communication and occult emphasis? Or am I missing something here?
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