History of the Piatnik Zigeuner deck

AFAIK, the Dondorf cards - also distributed by the Carreras cigarette company, and now available as the French Cartomancy deck was the first Lenormand deck printed - in Germany, circa 1845.

After Dondorf, Carreras cigarettes picked it up, as did an American cigarette company, though I disremember which one.

And then Lo Scarabeo reprinted it - the images are public domain.

So you sorta kinda are using the first Lenormand as we know it - which didn't come out until after her death, but what the hey? And unless there were earlier cards of the same style floating around in France, chances are the designs were German. I don't think there's any way of finding out for certain.

I found a site somewhere today with a list of the books she wrote - nothing about cartomancy, but quite a bit about the rich and famous of her time

What the hey, is for sure Gavriela. Thanks for that, it does make sense. I love my Lenormand cards.
The weather is as usual SeaQueen! Rain, rain, rain. I am evolving into a duck. Yet on the East coast of this wee land there is drought and it has been the mildest May on record. The Farmers are selling their stock very early as there is not enough feed to carry them through. Australia is fairing much worse than us though. I am thinking a pipe line from us to them is not a bad idea. This summer we had iceburgs floating within sight of land down south. The Climate is changing, but Tarot is still a mystery. Your right! Somethings I just do not want to find out. ~Rosanne

Yep, I have her books. Yes, none about cartomancy.

I think the Gipsy Zigeuner is a small version of the Italian Sibilla - check http://www.itarocchidigabriella.it/sibille.htm - and look at some of the different card images and titles to see why.

Doesn't match the French sibilla, but the Italian ones seem to have all of the Zigeuner cards.

Google translator is my friend, too, and the symbolism in places is unmistakeable.

When you can't Email - you handwrite

Gavriela said:

I think the Gipsy Zigeuner is a small version of the Italian Sibilla - check http://www.itarocchidigabriella.it/sibille.htm - and look at some of the different card images and titles to see why.

Doesn't match the French sibilla, but the Italian ones seem to have all of the Zigeuner cards.

Google translator is my friend, too, and the symbolism in places is unmistakeable.

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Hi Gav,
Thanks for the link but I was unsuccessful in getting a connection for some reason.
I wrote to a relative to see if she can ask around, by that I mean her aging friends had connections to people in the "gypsy clans" throughout the 1950's - 1970's in Austria & Hungary.

I would be interested to find out too, cos in my research al roads keep leading to Rome, so to speak.

Modiani's Carte della Fortuna have a bunch of same/similar cards to both Art Deco and the Gipsy Ziguener - it's one of the art deco Italian sibillas - have a look. The 'Inconstancy' card also has the same symbol, though it's not on that page - the big eye in the middle.

Il Meneghello's Sibilla Originale del 1890 is a more traditional pack, but again - note the correspondences - Love, Journey, Misfortune, Priest, Domestic Servant - it's all there.

Same with the repro deck done by Luigi Scapni. He's done a bunch of them, for that matter.

And more similarities in Lo Scarabeo's reproduction pack. An older one, again.

There had to be some cross-breeding happening someplace.

Gavriela said:

I would be interested to find out too, cos in my research al roads keep leading to Rome, so to speak.

Modiani's Carte della Fortuna have a bunch of same/similar cards to both Art Deco and the Gipsy Ziguener - it's one of the art deco Italian sibillas - have a look. The 'Inconstancy' card also has the same symbol, though it's not on that page - the big eye in the middle.

Click to expand...

Actually, ha-ha, all roads do lead to "Rome". The Austro-Hungarian empire use to be part of the "Roman" empire.
I really like the Carte della Fortuna deck, wish I had it too-
I have the Biedermeir deck which is identical to one of my Zigeuner Piatnik decks which is nearly identical to the Art Deco deck. I found the quality of the images poor in the Art Deco.
I saw some fantastic decks on a site which I forgot to bookmark that have been newly created. The themes, of course, are identical but the artist was fantastic. I'd like to get my hands on that deck because the visual is amazing and would trigger many visions when you meditate (stare) on them.
Even the authentic deck my aunt sent me is identical to the colored Zigeuner decks.
Off thread for a sec - I had the coffin card come up quite often in the last 6-8 months for wife of a male friend of mine. It was always right beside her to her right and the tree card beneath her not as often but a few times. She is looking at the coffin (using the French cartomancy deck) and standing on the tree. I get the feeling something is wrong with her. One time the exact cards showed up in the male friend's reading surround his wife (lady).
I had to handle that delicately and cautiously so I didn't alarm them cause as you know "we" can misinterpret sometimes. I did sum it up as forewarning to a pending health condition. I asked the Tarot for help with this question and the cards confirmed my findings. This is bothering me because I happen to think Lenormand has more "hits" than Zigeuner.
A second opinion is appreciated and always helpful.
lady-coffin
tree-mountain

Seaqueen, i inherited the same deck from my grandmother I've been bringing up this toppic from time to time here at AT, but the thing with this cards is there is almost nothing in the lwb ( an AT member sent me one all the way from Australia), there is almost nothing about them, at least not in English... Some AT people from Germany sent me great spreads and few hints on the meanings of GFC, but i still feel them as my personal oracle "blind spot".
If you want, i can forward you the stuff i have and please, if you come to find some sources, please let me know.
Love,
Lena Ruth

If you can get to that Italian page, run it through Google translator - it has quite a lot about the meanings of each of the cards - they can't always be taken at face value.

Mind, there's some connection - with the French sibillas I never know whether I'm coming or going. The Italian ones you can at least see a lot of symbolism about what's what (the Vanity/Surprise card has a big peacock on it, for instance). And the Italian ones seem to have a lot of, if not all of, the same cards as the German ones.

Seaqueen, are you using a full 36? I've had the same/similar combinations coming up for two people, but it's been in quickie 9 or 12 card readings - and now the Scythe is showing up for good measure, though always at the very end, so pointing away at least.

If you're doing a short reading, switch to a full one - and hope it means something other than it looks like. Check the houses, too - it's remotely possible it's not about health. Then again, I may not be the person to ask these days. It could be a long-term or chronic illness that hasn't been detected...doesn't have to be the worst. I know what you mean, though - one time I was doing a reading for a woman, and I could see clear as day (you know how you just can sometimes?) that she was going to have news of two deaths in her family the next week.

I didn't say anything. I had no idea how it could possibly be useful to do so, it would have just caused grief before the fact as well as after.

Seaqueen said:

I saw some fantastic decks on a site which I forgot to bookmark that have been newly created. The themes, of course, are identical but the artist was fantastic. I'd like to get my hands on that deck because the visual is amazing and would trigger many visions when you meditate (stare) on them.

Click to expand...

I found this one and caved in and ordered it. It's so pretty.

But that's how the madness always starts, isn't it?