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Starling  Starling is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz
...Indeed they seem to have some difficulty in separating the meaning of sign from planaet and indeed from house, if the prevalence of the Astrological alphabet is anything to go by.
I'm re-learning Astrology, and as with my current attempt at re-learning Tarot, I've chosen to start at the beginning and lock in some basics before I go out there and play with the Intermediate and Advanced techniques that I used to play with.

So one of the things I've done in the last couple of weeks is play with single keywords for Sign, planet and house. Yup, the Astrological alphabet. And believe it or not, even though I knew that there were better keywords I found making those "sentences" really hard (although they got easier as I did them) and useful as a beginner's exercise.

Now I KNOW that signs are not planets and are not houses, but you know, as a beginner's exercise, treating them as if they were was useful. On the other hand, if I'm still doing that stuff when I get past the beginner's exercises, that will be a whole other thing.

Oh, and in re-learning Tarot I'm finding keywords and books useful there too, although I'm already doing other things with the cards and not running to the books every time. My point is that there is a place for all of this beginner stuff, you just need to be aware that it is beginner stuff.
Top   #11
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dadsnook2000  dadsnook2000 is offline
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Establishing meanings


Most astrologers or early-studies astrologers use the meanings of signs, planets, houses, aspects, etc. that are given them by whatever teacher or friends they associate with or from whatever books they have available. But, it might be interesting to think about the methodology one would utilize to determine these meanings for yourself.

Astrologers who practice their craft do this all the time of course. The average 20 charts a week that I rune are part of my on-going "adjustment" or process of refinement and verification of meanings. But, I'm talking about a "from the ground up" process.

For planetary meanings, we would look for charts wherein the Sun conjoined a planet or for when a planet was on a chart's Ascendant angle. Once we have several of these charts we can start to compare the person's characteristics and approach to life for common forms of expression. Then, we gather more charts and use those early assumptions as a basis for determining further commonalities. A couple dozen examples and you have the basis for the meaning associated with that planet.

This type of methodology tends to isolate the actual characteristics so that the "general" meaning can be extracted from assumptions, expectations and wild guesses.

We can do the same for houses, for aspects (conjunctions, to start with) between planets.

Doing this for signs might require more extensive work. We have to look at what defines a "sign." Everyone might jump in at this point and say "its the spring equinox or Aries point." Not quite true.

** Tropical sign placements do relate to the Aries point but they are defined by the Sun's Declination -- the greatest height of the Sun each day if we plot it as a sine-wave relative to a reference point such as the horizon. Doing so will provide a basis for segmenting a continuing curve by some convenient manner. SUN SIGNS ARE DECLINATION SEGMENTS.

** If declination was the sole determination then the signs of Taurus and Leo would be identical as each spans a 30 to 60 degree span from the Aries-Libra axis. So, since they don't seem to have common expressions, we should note that the sine-wave also points to a process of increasing and decreasing, as well as being above or below the Aries-Libra axis of equality.

** We now need to ask the very obvious question, "If declination defines the Sun's sign, are signs exclusively related to the Sun?" If would tend to think this would be true to quite an extent. How would Pluto, or even Venus, having their own orbital inclinations relative to the Sun-Earth plane, be expected to be influenced by the sign-segment it happened to be located within? If this question is valid, whether we can answer it or not, then we also have to consider Minderwiz's question about sign rulership.

** If some think that a planet has characteristics that are related to a sign, then what is the difference between a planet and a sign. This is important! A sign cannot denote anger, but Mars might. Signs don't covet jewels, but Venus might. What can one possibly offer as proof of "rulership" links between a sign and a planet -- and this includes Pluto and Scorpio. Casual adoption of this form of thinking is as dangerous as equating signs to houses in terms of their meanings.

Astrological charts are models into which we place a lot of physically "real" and "unreal" components. Planets are "real" as are the MC, Ascendant and Vertex angles at the time and place of an event. Signs and houses and the Moon's nodes are not real -- you can't see them. They are mathematical constructs. Arabian parts and Sabian symbols are not "real" but are concepts. So, what in your charts are real, unreal, junk or misunderstood components?

Just some thoughts. But everyone who does charts and pursues understanding needs to think deeply about these and other issues. Dave
Top   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz
Please give me a sound Astrological reason why Pluto is the ruler, or even associated with Scorpio (other than by defining it so)
Good morning, hope that everyone has had a good and productive weekend.

Here's the thing:

Here in the States the term "Agree to disagree" means just that. In other words, that statement in itself is a testament that I respect your right to hold your view, and I recognize that there is no point in debating it further. Your opinion is unmoved, as is mine. So for us to go back and forth about Pluto, as I am sure many Astrologers have over the past 70+ years is pointless. To you be unto your way, and to me be mine.

However, my original post was not in effort to convince the Astrological community of the influence of Pluto. Rather I was just replying to the individual whom started the thread and had a question about what others thought about Pluto's use. I'm not in the habit of replying to posters in order to prove what I know, or to convince anyone of thinking how I think. I recognize that not everyone practices or even interprets Astrology in the same manner or with the same logic, and that has always been fine with me. Im not one of those OCD type Astrologers where everything has to be MY WAY. It simply doesn't work like that.

So with that said, I hope that the original poster has found that answers that he/she seeks.

Respectfully,

Star
Top   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dadsnook2000
Most astrologers or early-studies astrologers use the meanings of signs, planets, houses, aspects, etc. that are given them by whatever teacher or friends they associate with or from whatever books they have available. But, it might be interesting to think about the methodology one would utilize to determine these meanings for yourself.

Astrologers who practice their craft do this all the time of course. The average 20 charts a week that I rune are part of my on-going "adjustment" or process of refinement and verification of meanings. But, I'm talking about a "from the ground up" process.

For planetary meanings, we would look for charts wherein the Sun conjoined a planet or for when a planet was on a chart's Ascendant angle. Once we have several of these charts we can start to compare the person's characteristics and approach to life for common forms of expression. Then, we gather more charts and use those early assumptions as a basis for determining further commonalities. A couple dozen examples and you have the basis for the meaning associated with that planet.

This type of methodology tends to isolate the actual characteristics so that the "general" meaning can be extracted from assumptions, expectations and wild guesses.

We can do the same for houses, for aspects (conjunctions, to start with) between planets.

Doing this for signs might require more extensive work. We have to look at what defines a "sign." Everyone might jump in at this point and say "its the spring equinox or Aries point." Not quite true.

** Tropical sign placements do relate to the Aries point but they are defined by the Sun's Declination -- the greatest height of the Sun each day if we plot it as a sine-wave relative to a reference point such as the horizon. Doing so will provide a basis for segmenting a continuing curve by some convenient manner. SUN SIGNS ARE DECLINATION SEGMENTS.

** If declination was the sole determination then the signs of Taurus and Leo would be identical as each spans a 30 to 60 degree span from the Aries-Libra axis. So, since they don't seem to have common expressions, we should note that the sine-wave also points to a process of increasing and decreasing, as well as being above or below the Aries-Libra axis of equality.

** We now need to ask the very obvious question, "If declination defines the Sun's sign, are signs exclusively related to the Sun?" If would tend to think this would be true to quite an extent. How would Pluto, or even Venus, having their own orbital inclinations relative to the Sun-Earth plane, be expected to be influenced by the sign-segment it happened to be located within? If this question is valid, whether we can answer it or not, then we also have to consider Minderwiz's question about sign rulership.

** If some think that a planet has characteristics that are related to a sign, then what is the difference between a planet and a sign. This is important! A sign cannot denote anger, but Mars might. Signs don't covet jewels, but Venus might. What can one possibly offer as proof of "rulership" links between a sign and a planet -- and this includes Pluto and Scorpio. Casual adoption of this form of thinking is as dangerous as equating signs to houses in terms of their meanings.

Astrological charts are models into which we place a lot of physically "real" and "unreal" components. Planets are "real" as are the MC, Ascendant and Vertex angles at the time and place of an event. Signs and houses and the Moon's nodes are not real -- you can't see them. They are mathematical constructs. Arabian parts and Sabian symbols are not "real" but are concepts. So, what in your charts are real, unreal, junk or misunderstood components?

Just some thoughts. But everyone who does charts and pursues understanding needs to think deeply about these and other issues. Dave
Just now reading this, excellently put.
Top   #14
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Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
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The problem with the 'alphabet' approach is that it greatly oversimplifies and therefore misleads. For a beginner it might be acceptable for a time, as long as it is remembered that Scorpio does Not equal Pluto or the eighth house. But if it is taken as 'gospel' it cuts the learner off from the power of Astrological method and progress is never made beyond the rudimentary.

Signs modify the way that planets express themselves (according to a tropical view). They are passive circumstances not actors in the horoscope - Dave quite rightly points out that Aries cannot express anger but Mars might. According to tradition different planets act more to their potential in some signs and struggle to express themselves in others. In some ways its a little analogous to the 'going' in horse races - some horses do well in soft going others need the going to be firm.

Astrologers have used 'rulership' in at least two distinct ways. One way is by affinity - planets rule activities and things that they have some of the same characteristics. Thus Mars rules surgery and accidents. However this rulership by affinity was never extended to Sign rulership.

Sign rulership is based on the zodiac circle (from a 2D perspective). The lights are given the Summer solstice and adjoining sign - the Moon gets Cancer and the Sun Leo (remember this was developed in the Northern hemisphere). Thus the brightest heavenly bodies get the warmest time of year.

That leaves 10 signs and 5 planets remaining, so each remaining planet gets rulership of two signs. As the planet furthest from the Sun (as far as the ancients knew) Saturn got the signs furthest away from the Sun and Moon - Aquarius and Capricorn. Rulership of the remaining signs was assigned in chaldean order for each pair of signs moving clockwise and anticlockwise from Capricorn and Aquarius. Thus Jupiter gets Sagittarius and Pisces, Mars gets Scorpio and Aries, Venus gets Libra and Taurus and Mercury gets Virgo and Gemini.

Now, if you change the system to allow, say Pluto to rule Scorpio on the basis of affinity, you also undermine the basis for the remaining Sign rulerships and everything is up for grabs. You could even argue for asteroids as sign rulers, and I have seen that argued.

I don't see any reason why Neptune and Uranus can't be used as affinity rulers, and even Pluto if you really must but try not to confuse the two types of rulership. Otherwise one of the building blocks of Astrology has been lost.
Top   #15
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I am not a true student of astrology, nor do I play one on TV. But I do dabble.

That being said: while Mars is the true and widely accepted ruler of Scorpio, Pluto has been ASSOCIATED with Scorpio due to the mythological aspects of Pluto being the ruler of the underworld. Scorpio is all about the undercurrents and darker aspects of emotion, as well as secrecy and death (in all of its aspects: endings, transformations, change, etc.).

Just my $.02.

T.
Top   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz
The problem with the 'alphabet' approach is that it greatly oversimplifies and therefore misleads. For a beginner it might be acceptable for a time, as long as it is remembered that Scorpio does Not equal Pluto or the eighth house. But if it is taken as 'gospel' it cuts the learner off from the power of Astrological method and progress is never made beyond the rudimentary.
Well yes. But it is useful in the same ways that looking in books and memorizing keywords is useful when learning Tarot, at the right time and at the right place, and as a foundation for learning other, more difficult things. Of course you will find yourself in trouble if you never go beyond the Kindergarten stage. That goes for learning how to read when you are a little kid too.

But there is something to say about doing the beginner stuff when you are a beginner, or even when you realize that you never put a foundation under what you were learning in the first place if you really are not a beginner.

I'm looking up book meanings for every Tarot card as they come up for the first time this time around. There have been quite a few surprises. I'm having Oh WOW I didn't think of that moments almost every time I get a new card. I'm keeping an organized journal this time around, so I know when it is a new card. And do you know what is interesting? I'm beginning to be able to read the cards without doing an looking up, even when it is a new one. I've begun to build Tarot foundations and the first few floors are now going up and looking solid instead of shaky.

And like it or not, the sign does have something in common with the planet that rules it, and with the house it would occupy if Aries was on the Ascendant. No, they aren't the same thing, but the web site I was learning the Astrological Alphabet from made that very clear. And when I was doing those one keyword sentences, the fact that it would have all worked out better with more and better keywords was obvious.
Top   #17
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I've nothing against keywords, its a useful beginning and I hope I made that clear - the problem is that some Astrologers who should no better do talk as if Mars, Aries and the Ascendant were the same thing and that is wrong. One of the sad things about the domination of the psychological approach is a desire to simplify out much of the tradition and concentrate on what they regard as the essence. Astrology is complex and requires much more effort to learn than Tarot (and I enjoy Tarot, so don't take that as a slight on Tarot).

Yes you have to begin somewhere and keywords works but it might be better to look for different keywords for signs, planets and houses.

On rulerships I've given you the reason why the signs are allocated to planets. The ancients often talked about the Signs as the houses of the planets (not in the sense of horoscope houses). Mercury is in his own house in Virgo and like anyone who is in their own house he is comfortable and can within limits do much as he wants. He functions better in Virgo than he does in Pisces. Houses do take on some of the characteristics of their owners but only because of the ownership and one never confuses a house with its owner. Mercury does not rule Virgo because they have similar characteristics, Virgo has some Mercury characteristics because it is the house of Mercury. This may seem pedantic but it is an important point. If another planet is in Virgo then it owes rent to Mercury (in an Astrological sense) it is in someone else's house and must modify it's behaviour accordingly. It has to take on the fixtures and fittings, whether it likes them or not, which is one of the reasons why Jupiter doesn't particularly like Virgo. OK I've put that in a very anthropomorphic way but in essence it's something that holds true in a chart - in Astrological speak, Mercury disposits any planet in Virgo.

Now I know Dave would take a different line, in the sense that he often will dispense with signs altogether. I don't mind that even though it doesn't work for me but if you are going to use signs then you need to eventually begin to look at their role in the horoscope in a different way in which you approach planets and houses. Planets are the actors, signs are the roles they play and the houses are where they perform those roles.
Top   #18
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I very much liked how you described the differences between the signs and the planets that rule them. I believe that description is going to help me get a little deeper into both the signs and the planets.

And yes, it was very obvious, even just with my own chart, that I'd have done better with different keywords for the planets, signs and houses. Multiple keywords for each set would be even better just as the cards have multiple meanings. But the concept that you can make sentences with keywords is probably going to be a useful one for a while.
Top   #19
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Keywords


I remember using Keyword sentences. After awhile, I made my own lists for planets, houses, signs and aspects. What I soon realized was that there are benefits and distractions that don't always balance out.

For example, two keywords (for a planet and a house) tend to work quite well, but three keywords (for a planet, house and sign) starts to become more complex -- which you wouldn't expect. This is partly due to the difficulty in clearly distinguishing between the meanings of the planet and the sign because it all has to work in a sentence that is helpful. Also, the MC has a different meaning than the 10th house, while (as was noted by Minderwiz) the sign that one planet is in can modify its keywords differently than if another planet was in that sign.

Another example of keyword problems relates to the chart being used. Different charts have different purposes and need to be read in different ways. You can't apply "natal" chart meanings to secondary progressions, solar arc progressions, solar returns, lunar returns, mid-point structures, etc. They all have to be read differently. In order to get to that point, the student (or capable astrologer, if at the point you casually use these types of charts) does move beyond keywords to a position of "ease of understanding the concepts". It is hard to express this change-point, or the first of many of these change-points but it relates to not using astrology but by "being astrology" -- it becomes a comfortable inner thing that comes from doing a lot of charts and working with clients.

In short, do start with keywords but recognize that you will be moving quickly away from them if you get into more than natal astrology. Dave
Top   #20

 





 


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