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Quote:
Originally Posted by opaloz
I'm a scorpio and was wondering now that they say Pluto is no longer a planet what fits for a scorpio nowadays.
The Sun rules Leo and the Moon Cancer, neither terrestrial body is astronomically speaking strictly a planet to begin with!
Top   #31
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Having first learnt modern astrology I never even considered any other possibility than Pluto ruling Scorpio. Now, after spending the last month or so learning the basics of Hellenistic and Medieval Astrology, having Pluto ruling Scorpio seems nonsensical. Whether or not you use Pluto in deliniations or not doesn't really matter and certainly Pluto's 'status' as a planet is irrelevant. But honestly, Pluto as ruler of Scorpio seems to me to be the loose thread that leads to the whole of modern astrology unravelling. Six months ago I wouldn't have thought like this though. I can't recommend enough for all astrologers to at least spend a brief time examining the traditional approach. It makes things SO much clearer.
Top   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz
As I tried to point out earlier in the thread the ancients had a reason why Mars rules Scorpio and the moderns do not, other than they think it is associated with Scorpio or has Scorpio characteristics. Indeed they've even tried to change the nature of Scorpio to make it better fit Pluto.
This is interesting. I am now beginning to wonder how much my understanding of Scorpio is based on what I have learnt studying modern astrology where Scorpio is ruled by Pluto. Would this also be the same for Aquarius and Pisces? This journey into traditional astrology certainly pulls the rug out from under you. It's like being a beginner all over again.....scary, but very exciting.
Top   #33
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Cool bring back plutos right to rule


blessed be

crystal dawn
Top   #34
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Let me try and answer that as best I can. Firstly a quote from Marion March in The Only Way to Learn About Horary and Electional Astrology (Volume 6 of the series):

'...to convince me that the planet Uranus and the sign Aquarius work in many similar fashions that they are a near perfect blend and that in this century Uranus is much more representative of Aquarian matters than Saturn....to my way of thinking this planet (Neptune) is much more compatible with the sing of Pisces than outgoing, hopeful, every proselytizing and not always sensitive Jupiter'

Now one thing is clear, March is talking about affinity here and is basing her rulerships on affinity. She does not recognise, (or possibly know) that the original sign rulerships were not based on affinity.

Also note the phrase 'that in this century' . (the book was published in 1994 and the original article was 1990). It seems to imply that in some way, either Aquarius has changed its nature or our society has altered to make it more like Aquarius.

I agree with the former interpretation, except that again, I'm not sure March realises the full import of what she is saying. The modern meanings of the sign date to Alan Leo's 'Astrology for All' and 'The Art of Synthesis' published in 1904. Leo changed the descriptions of signs from what the had been for virtually 2000 years. Leo was a believer in Theosopy and the coming Age of Aquarius (which he believed would begin in 1928. To quote Nick Campion (A History of Western Astrology Volume 2)

'...he set out to create a zodiacal astrology which would fulfil this purpose (preparing for the new age) byencouraging people to reflect on their inner character, rather than measure the extent to which they conformed to a set of externally imposed criteria'

Leo also established the Sun and thus Sun signs as the most important feature of Astrology. Leo's new definitions were taken up amplified and amended to fit Jungian views by the later psychological approach.

Now does that invalidate March's approach? Apart from the fact that she takes it all for granted and does not explain the reality, no it doesn't. The modern psychological approach is a perfectly valid one and it needs Uranus, Neptune and probably Pluto to function. Indeed March almost recognises this by saying that whilst she has ditched Saturn and Jupiter as having anything to do with Aquarius and Pisces, she still uses Mars as a 'co-ruler' for Scorpio because she thinks that 60 years worth of knowledge of Pluto isn't enough (though presumably she looks forward to a time when Pluto will take its full place).

If you read Leo's 'Astrology for All' (Google it) you will see that the sign characteristics are not only very different from Ptolemy and Lilly but are very different from a modern psychological one. Leo is much harsher and fatalistic (he was a believer in developed souls and also asserts that some people are just born bad) but he put in train the reorientation and redefinition of signs in Astrology,
Top   #35
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Cool plutos right to rule


[QUOTE=Minderwiz]By modern standards that's certainly true, as you say later on, historically, it's not the case. Without a grasp of at least some astronomical basics, it's difficult to grasp some of the symbolism of Astrology - many of Saturn's characteristics are related to it being the most distant visible planet.

yes such as the lord of time (no doctor who jokes lol) I agree we do need some astronomical basics, but we do not just dwell there. Astrology takes those basics and moves them a bit further - looking at the relationships between the planets and the signs and how these energies effect each other.


QUOTE - Minderwiz
Well apart from the 'trans Neptunian Planets' in Uranian Astrology (and they can be related to Astronomical knowledge of the time), it appears that we always have done and still do . But if we reject Astronomers' definition of planets then who decides? Do we simply pick something we like or make something up? Even worse, many Astrologers seem to feel that they should adopt all sorts of bodies that Astronomers discover - Uranus, Neptune, Pluto, Chiron, Sedna and many more bodies seem to have been adopted because astronomers discovered them, rather than because Astrologer/Astronomers pondered over the night sky.

Trans neptunian objects are a recent discovery and venturing into another subject entirely.
Though personally i have no problem at all with people using neptune,uranus/herchel,chiron,sedna,ceres or whatever else in astrology if they wish to, its up to the individual. Who are we to say whats right and wrong. Everyone has there own individual methods and ways of seeing things that is unique.

pluto has been used in astrology for over 50 years now - are we to say that the astrologers in the past who have used pluto were wrong or mistaken to do so.


Quote - Minderwiz
Well if you haven't got a good reason to use it, why would you? Or are you suggesting that we can do anything we like in Astrology whether we've a reason or not?

I am not suggesting anything about other planetary bodies only that i still use pluto. Why would you not???

Quote - Minderwiz
I don't think you are and I'm sure that you feel that you have a good reason to continue using Pluto - you've clearly reasoned your response to astronomer's downgrading Pluto.


Yes my response is based on the downgrading of pluto - but based on this new wave of astrologers who feel that just because pluto has been downgraded by the au that pluto has no longer a place in astrology. I feel that this is giving the au direct power over astrology - astrology is a subject and art within its own right.
What if the a u said tomorrow " oh we are going to downgrade mercury because its not big enough to be classed as a planet" would we as astrologers sudenly say that mercury has no longer a part to play in astrology?

Quote - Minderwiz
I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. An astrological chart is a representation in two dimensions of the planetary positions relative to an observer in a defined location on Earth. In that real sense it is astronomical but I've never really had the impression that you describe, even from Astrologers that I disagree with - I've always felt that they were giving an astrological reading - as Dave has often said, Astrology is a many faceted art.

in astrology there is room to use intuition to expand on the basic meanings.

Quote - Minderwiz
You have every right to use whatever bodies you wish and there''s no way that I would wish to stop you or anyone else. All that I seek to do is to get people to think about why they use bodies and also to realise that jumping on the astronomers' bandwagon and incorporating newly discovered bodies into Astrology is not a particularly wise move. Ironically, given your statement on astromomers and astrologers, Pluto was adopted into Astrology BECAUSE astronomers had discovered it, rather than because it had any obvious Astrological symbolism. It's difficult to ascribe Astrological characteristics when all you've got to go on is astronomical descriptions.


Yes but you could say that you are jumping on the astronomy bandwagon by not using pluto.

Quote - Minderwiz
Who decides what is 'official'? there's no ruling Astrological body that decides on rulerships, or anything else. As I tried to point out earlier in the thread the ancients had a reason why Mars rules Scorpio and the moderns do not, other than they think it is associated with Scorpio or has Scorpio characteristics. Indeed they've even tried to change the nature of Scorpio to make it better fit Pluto. By all means adopt Scorpio as a ruler in your own system but please recognise that it doesn't have an 'official ' status (neither does Mars if it comes to that - though it does have a couple of thousand years plus of history).

For me its the official ruler of scorpio - for you, its maybe mars - thats okay too. But the same people who gave pluto the negative attributes of mars will still associate those attributes to scorpio whether they consider pluto or mars to be be the ruler. Though there is so much more to scorpio and mars/pluto (which ever you choose) than that, there is a calm and beautiful side to consider also.

blessed be

crystal dawn
Top   #36
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Comments on the changing perceptions of planets


As Minderwiz points out here, and as has been noted in other posts, much of what "modern" astrologers "know" is a set of beliefs-statements that have been developed or created over the past century by influential astrologers, secret societies, and the need of the popular press to simply fulfill the public interest in astrology.

Sign meanings, affiliations and rulerships are part of this creative-developing effort, and our adoption of them (as well as our questioning of them) needs to given critical thought. My opinion is to not bother using signs as they seem to add little of real substance to chart understanding compared to other proven and more consistent tools.

But, i would like to point out that I believe the role of PLANETS is changing for many in our present society. Uranus is one of those "changing" planets. This planet, along with Saturn, is very much in the astrological limelight today due to its current patterns in the sky. With Saturn, Uranus represents the oft-recurring struggle between the status-quo and the need for change, between governmental bureaucracy and its practices and the public's dis-satisfaction with results, between codified "knowledge" and new discoveries, between church tradition and new forms of spiritual seeking, etc.

Now, for many of us, Uranus is becoming more personal in its nature and in its role in our charts. We are seeing that we can promote change in our world, that grass-roots campaigns can promote change, that personal empowerment can challenge laws and government decisions that affect one single person, that a consumer protest can cause a store to change its policies on refunds and product guarantees, that a car company can be made to share information about its knowledge of product defects, etc.

Instead of Saturn-Uranus only representing cultural and social change on a grand scale, we can bring these two symbols into our private lives and world. Now, in my view, this is a more productive line of discussion than one about signs. Dave
Top   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilishAngel
Hmm Mars is the most prominent planet in my chart, I thought that would mean I have an dominate Aries type influence, so would be Scorpio then? Or should I just not look at it like that?
I think you hit on the crux of the difference between modern and traditional Astrology. Modern Astrologers use signs as their main descriptors having assigned personal characteristics to them. Even though we still have the adjectives 'mercurial, venal, martial, jovial and saturnine, you won't find them in modern astrological analysis.

The traditional Astrologer never used signs as describing personal characteristics. Instead they used the four humours, choleric, sanguine, phlegmatic and melancholic, either on their own or in combination with each other, to describe personal characteristics. I've explained how these were determined in the thread on traditional Astrology, the point here though is that they don't depend on one factor, such as Sun sign, or even one prominent planet (though both may have an influence).

Having one planet ruling two signs is difficult for a modern approach - is Mars, 'Aries' or 'Scorpio' in it's nature? Of course having Uranus , Neptune and Pluto helps by almost getting to one planet per sign - so Mars is Aries and Pluto is Scorpio. That still leaves Mercury and Venus with two signs but who knows, if we make Ceres the ruler of Taurus and some other minor planet ruler of Virgo or Gemini everything would be nice and simple (apart from the leftover dwarves, centaurs and asteroids).

Perhaps modern Astrologers should drop the idea of sign rulership and move to a system of sign association, it would fit there approach better and it's a reasonable way of applying the psychological approach.
Top   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilishAngel
Hmm Mars is the most prominent planet in my chart, I thought that would mean I have an dominate Aries type influence, so would be Scorpio then? Or should I just not look at it like that?
hmm.... Mars rules Scorpio and Aries it makes sense. Aries is full of energy and projects it outwards, kind of like exothermic reaction to deal with issues, Scorpio has the same energy but pulls it inwards and hides it, till the time comes to direct this potent energy ... somewhere. Endothermic, for lack of a better word, so Scorpio may appear icy cold on the outside, but has been called a raging volcano underneath.

Pluto is just a circular block of ice, it is a misfit in this scenario, sorry.
Top   #39
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Cool


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kibeth
hmm.... Mars rules Scorpio and Aries it makes sense. Aries is full of energy and projects it outwards, kind of like exothermic reaction to deal with issues, Scorpio has the same energy but pulls it inwards and hides it, till the time comes to direct this potent energy ... somewhere. Endothermic, for lack of a better word, so Scorpio may appear icy cold on the outside, but has been called a raging volcano underneath.

Pluto is just a circular block of ice, it is a misfit in this scenario, sorry.

Interesting how you are looking at mars from an astrology point of view and pluto from an astronomical one. We will have to agree to disagree.

blessings

crystal dawn
Top   #40

 





 


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