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I don't really want to get into a confrontational situation. Once that happens people tend to retreat into entrenched positions and we end up learning nothing from each other.

My reading of crystal dawn's quoted post was very much along the lines that she outlined in her post above. As I said earlier I think beginners need to learn a 'standard' system (the basics) and then develop from there and that was my understanding of her post.

My qualification to that was (and is) that students of astrology should understand what the do and why. Astrology used to be taught in universities, it is an academic subject in that sense. It has a rationale and discipline that must be learned before it can be fine tuned and developed. It was and is a science and an art but not a science in the modern sense of the word - it is not totally separate from the practitioner and 'objective'. It is analogous to playing the piano - you need to understand not only the mechanics of the piano but the rules of music - once you do you can improvise. and the best musicians (and astrologers) are those who imbue the art with their feeling as well as their technical skill.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crystal dawn
your response does seem a little aggressive - so i will decline your invitation to talk about the qualities of pluto at the moment.
I must be very Martian today
I didn't mean to bludgeon you. I am interested in your answer, truly. Because I've never seen it articulated why Pluto became the ruler of Scorpio (or Neptune of Pisces, or Uranus of Aquarius). Why is it the ruler of Scorpio, beyond the fact that someone decided to make it so 50 years ago, after 3000 years of it being Mars? Honestly, I think the size of Pluto is irrelevant, but the reason it should be considered the ruler of Scorpio or considered along the personal planets in a chart isn't.

As for mythology: if you don't use it to underpin planets which are named after a deity, then you throw out one of the basics of astrology. Mythology is not *all* there is, of course - but it's unavoidable, even among those astrologers that keep it in the background. A bit like the foundations of a house, you don't see them, but you're glad they are there
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz
My qualification to that was (and is) that students of astrology should understand what the do and why. Astrology used to be taught in universities, it is an academic subject in that sense. It has a rationale and discipline that must be learned before it can be fine tuned and developed. It was and is a science and an art but not a science in the modern sense of the word - it is not totally separate from the practitioner and 'objective'. It is analogous to playing the piano - you need to understand not only the mechanics of the piano but the rules of music - once you do you can improvise. and the best musicians (and astrologers) are those who imbue the art with their feeling as well as their technical skill.
:applause:

I love that! Can I quote you to my sceptical friends?
Top   #53
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Richard Tarnas on Pluto


Richard Tarnas, noted Harvard historian, philosopher, and author of Psyche and Cosmos (detailing the impact of the heavy/outer planets on society and culture over two thousand years) notes in his piece, the Planets, written in Archai (an on-line journal for astrology) the following:

Archai: The Journal of Archetypal Cosmology
• Volume 1, Number 1 (Summer 2009)

"Observations of potential correlations with Pluto by astrologers in the
subsequent decades suggested that the qualities associated with the new planet in fact bore a striking relevance to the mythic character of Pluto, the Greek Hades, and also to the figure of Dionysus, with whom Hades-Pluto was closely associated by the Greeks. (Both Heraclitus and Euripides identified Dionysus and Hades as one and the same deity.) Closely analogous to
Freud’s concept of the primordial id, “the broiling cauldron of the instincts,” and to Darwin’s understanding of an ever-evolving nature and the biological struggle for existence, the archetype associated with the planet Pluto is also linked to Nietzsche’s Dionysian principle and the will to power and to Schopenhauer’s blind striving universal will—all these embodying the
powerful forces of nature and emerging from nature’s chthonic depths, within and without, the intense, fiery elemental underworld. Again, as with both Uranus and Neptune, so also in Pluto’s case the mythological domain and element associated with the new planet’s given name appear to be poetically accurate, but here the archetypal parallels between the mythic figure
and the observed qualities are especially extensive.

Beyond these ancient Greco-Roman figures (Pluto, Hades, Dionysus) and cognate modern European concepts (Freudian id, Darwinian nature, Schopenhauerian will, Nietzschean will to power and Dionysian impulse), the archetype associated with the planet Pluto also encompasses a number of major deities outside the Western context, such as the Hindu deity Shiva, god of destruction and creation, and Kali and Shakti, goddesses of erotic
power and elemental transformation, destruction and regeneration, death and rebirth.

To summarize the consensus of contemporary astrologers: Pluto is associated with the principle of elemental power, depth, and intensity; with that which compels, empowers, and intensifies whatever it touches, sometimes to overwhelming and catastrophic extremes; with the primordial instincts, libidinal and aggressive, destructive and regenerative, volcanic and
cathartic, eliminative, transformative, ever-evolving; with the biological processes of birth, sex, and death, the cycle of death and rebirth; with upheaval, breakdown, decay, and fertilization; violent purgatorial discharge of pent-up energies, purifying fire; situations of life-and-death extremes, power struggles, all that is titanic, potent, and massive. Pluto represents the
underworld and underground in all senses: elemental, geological, instinctual, political, social, sexual, urban, criminal, mythological, demonic. It is the dark, mysterious, taboo, and often terrifying reality that lurks beneath the surface of things, beneath the ego, societal conventions, and the veneer of civilization, beneath the surface of the Earth, that is periodically unleashed
with destructive and transformative force. Pluto impels, burns, consumes, transfigures, resurrects. In mythic and religious terms, it is associated with all myths of descent and transformation, and with all deities of destruction and regeneration, death and rebirth: Dionysus, Hades and Persephone, Pan, Medusa, Lilith, Innana, Isis and Osiris, the volcano goddess Pele, Quetzalcoatl, the Serpent power, Kundalini, Shiva, Kali, Shakti.

With respect to Pluto’s discovery, the synchronistic phenomena in the decades immediately surrounding 1930, and more generally in the twentieth century, include the splitting of the atom and the unleashing of nuclear power; the titanic technological empowerment of modern industrial civilization and military force; the rise of fascism and other mass movements; the widespread cultural influence of evolutionary theory and Archai:
psychoanalysis with their focus on the biological instincts; increased sexual and erotic expression in social mores and the arts; intensified activity and public awareness of the criminal underworld; and a tangible intensification of instinctually driven mass violence and catastrophic historical developments, evident in the world wars, the holocaust, and the threat of nuclear annihilation and ecological devastation. Here also can be mentioned the intensified politicization and power struggles characteristic of twentieth-century life, the development of powerful forms of depth-psychological transformation and catharsis, and the scientific recognition of the entire cosmos as a vast evolutionary phenomenon from the primordial fireball to the still-evolving present.
* * *
It is a bit difficult to improve on his thoughts. Now that Pluto has been defined, I'm looking forward to seeing how it is or is not related to Scorpio. Dave
Top   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueFox
ok, for real? just because Science says something, doesen't make it true
Yes I agree, indeed the best that science can do is show that some theory or proposition is false.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueFox
lets look at the job description of a scientist
"To observe and report."
And also to advance theories and hypotheses based on their observations. If there's evidence to disprove the theory/hypothesis, then it should be discarded. Most of these hypotheses and theories depend on axioms (assertions and definitions taken as true). In a very real sense science is a faith, or belief - it is not certainty. [/quote]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueFox
I'm not going to kicc pluto's readin out of my chart, when I was born it was scorpio rising, pluto, it's ruler, was in the first house with mars and scorpio, this is signifigant no matter what 'science' has to say about it.
Well scientists never did advance the belief that Pluto rules Scorpio (or for that matter any of the other astrological rulerships). Science couldn't care less about astrological rulerships (which is a pity LOL). What they did advance was that Pluto was a planet and in that they were wrong in purely astronomical terms - because they failed to apply their own rules properly. They have now reluctantly and belatedly recognised the error. Now as I said above it's perfectly possible for a 'dwarf' planet to be seen as a sign ruler but what we have to think about is the astrological reasons why Pluto does or does not rule Scorpio. That really is the key issue in the thread and needs a clear astrological response.

The only role I can see for astronomers in this is one of error. If they had not made their mistake about Pluto being the planet they expected and prematurely given it planetary status, would Astrologers have adopted it and would they have given it rulership of Scorpio, if they understood the basis on which rulerships were established? - that is did Astrologers compound the error of the astronomers?

It's a bit a moot question because Pluto was adopted and Astrologers did give it the rulership of Scorpio. Our challenge is to re-evaluate the situation to the extent we recognise that Pluto is much smaller than originally thought, is part of a double 'planetary' system (like Earth and the Moon) and has a very eccentric orbit. Now I don't see any reason why someone can't claim that Pluto should be used and it should be used because it adds something to chart interpretation that could not come from any other body. The traditional Astrologer, John Frawley, in his book on Sports Astrology finds that in some charts the position of Pluto is significant for the answer to his questions on 'who will win?' Frawley doesn't use Pluto in any other branch of Astrology and he certainly doesn't give it any sign rulership but he does indicate that for reasons he doesn't understand, Pluto is useful.

From an astrological perspective, it's not a question of either keeping Pluto as (for many) the most important planet in the chart or dropping it entirely and banishing it back into the frozen wastes of the Kuiper Belt. There are many intermediate possibilities as well.
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Diggity izam DS,
That fits perfectly with what I understand about pluto's influences.
The reason it's supposed to be Scorpio's ruler was that, similarly, Scorpio is heavy on the 'sex, death, rebirth, raw unkempt ever moving foreward' stuff

this is exhibited in the advent of mass murder devices, extreme left/right movements, polarization, the ever increasing potency of mother nature's lashings, and the baby boomers along with the STD (aids most notable) underlining the 'extremes, sex, and death aspects of the sign and planet said to rule it.
Top   #56
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Fudagazi

Yes - fame at last LOL


Dave.

I don't necessarily disagree with any of your statements or quotes. Indeed I've come to the conclusion that modern psychological Astrology could not function without the outer planets including Pluto. It certainly is the consensus of those 'contemporary' (I assume he means astrologers following a psychological approach) that Pluto fulfils those criteria. I'm not learned enough to challenge Tarnas' assertions, so we'll take them as an accurate description of the facts, without asking for how he arrived at the view based on less than a third of a Pluto orbit to go on (after all Pluto is an eccentric body and may actually deliver eccentric meanings depending on where it is in it's orbit). If he is reporting the current views of most Western Astrologers, then he's certainly correct.

Again, a Jungian perspective requires some sychronicity associated with Pluto 's discovery - just as Neptune's discovery was synchronous with the American Civil War, the Wars in Europe, the rape of Africa and was prominent in charts associated with the outbreak of the First World War, clearly showing Neptune as the planet of dreams and idealism and Chiron discovered in 1977 was followed by the expanding of global stock markets, global banking, financial crises, the rise of the Euro and the present financial travails - the wounded stockbroker? It's easy to trawl the history of various countries to find examples that fits our preconceived views. Why is Pluto associated with atomic power, which if anything is to do with Uranus (Uranium) and not Rock and Roll or transatlantic air travel? Unless it's preconceived ideas. We pick examples that fit.

Again none of that discredits Pluto as a valid astrological body, it simply says, in the words of the former Chinese Foreign Minister Chou En Lai, commenting on whether the French Revolution was a 'good thing' - 'It's too soon to know' or at least it's too soon to know for sure.

Bluefox

If you base your understanding of Scorpio on the writings of twentieth century Astrologers , then you may well be right - Scorpio is a nasty, brutish and perverted sign for many of them - if you do a little historical research you will see that the tradition did not heap all the ills of the world on its shoulders.

Yes, it rules the sex organs but then the ancients did not see sex as a perversion and it rules still and stinking waters, beetles and sexual diseases (caused by too much indulgence in Venus activities). Mass murders, death and extremes either natural or man made have nothing to do with Scorpio, except in the fevered imagination of 'contemporary' astrologers, who certainly need their modern version of the 'devil' Mass murder may (and I mean maybe associated with an uncontrolled and badly debilitated Mars in opposition to an equally debilitated Moon, Death (and taxes) are an eighth House issue, not eighth sign.

The final sentence of Dave's post is important here but I'd add another rider - which definition of Scorpio do you use? One that is at least two thousand years old or one that is less than 100 years old in it's present form and not fully recognised by even all the psychological astrologers? If you wish to define Scorpio so that it meets the definition of Pluto then as long as you know what you are doing you pays your money and you takes your chance.
Top   #57
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Just to show how time and signs can change


Cyril Fagan was an Irish astrologer, historian of ancient times, student of Egyptology (or something spelled like that), researcher, etc. who lived in the 1900's and only passed away a couple of decades ago. He re-discovered the Sidereal sky, the ancient knowledge of signs and stars from many cultures, and postulated the current and modern form of Sidereal astrology. Here is what his travels to Egypt and interpretation of hieroglyphics (he could read them) and research among Greek writings led him to write about Scorpio.

Scorpio: The evening rising of the constellation Scorpio occurred during the lunar month of Payni when the Sun was in Taurus. The Egyptians of the Pyramidic period identified the Scorpion with Srkt, the scorpion-goddess Serket, or to give her full Pyramidic name, Srkt. Ii tw, which translated means “she-who-relieves-the-windpipe” (Pyr.606; PSBA 39, 34). According to our constellation melothesia table, this immediately identifies Scorpio with the second mundane house. In modern conventional astrology, the windpipe comes under the dominion of Taurus!

It would appear that the Egyptians also identified this constellation with Serpens, the serpent, the stars of which intermingle with those of the Scorpion. In Egyptian symbolism, the serpent always has been associated with the winds. The evening rising of Scorpio ushered in the deadly Khamsin (Arabic—SO days wind) bringing with it pestilential hot sandstorms from the Sahara and hordes of scorpions to infest the land. This was the most parched, oppressive and sickening month of the year and frequently brought plague or similar contagion. It was during this month that the waters of the Nile were at their lowest and arid death stalked the land. In symbolism, Scorpio, the snake sign par excellence, is an airy sign.

I offer this only to make the point that what we "know" may not be what others "know" and that we have to really have a solid basis of understanding of our history, our views, our practice. From all of the discussion so far, and from years of reading and debating with others, I can only believe that any relationship between Pluto and Scorpio, or of Mars and Scorpio, comes from what we perceive as "affinity." There is nothing in the sky, nothing in the math or measurement from a conceptual Aries point, nothing in the Sun's declination and resulting seasons that really ties the segment of local space about the Earth's surface known as Scorpio to a planet. It's all verbiage. Just my thoughts. Dave
PS --- if someone were to post Alan Leo's views of Scorpio, they would be a bit different from those of the Egyptians. What changed, why did it change, who changed it, who can justify any of it? It's enough to bore one to death. Dave
Top   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dadsnook2000
To summarize the consensus of contemporary astrologers: Pluto is associated with the principle of elemental power, depth, and intensity; with that which compels, empowers, and intensifies whatever it touches, sometimes to overwhelming and catastrophic extremes; with the primordial instincts, libidinal and aggressive, destructive and regenerative, volcanic and cathartic, eliminative, transformative, ever-evolving; with the biological processes of birth, sex, and death, the cycle of death and rebirth; with upheaval, breakdown, decay, and fertilization; violent purgatorial discharge of pent-up energies, purifying fire; situations of life-and-death extremes, power struggles, all that is titanic, potent, and massive. Pluto represents the underworld and underground in all senses: elemental, geological, instinctual, political, social, sexual, urban, criminal, mythological, demonic. It is the dark, mysterious, taboo, and often terrifying reality that lurks beneath the surface of things, beneath the ego, societal conventions, and the veneer of civilization, beneath the surface of the Earth, that is periodically unleashed
with destructive and transformative force. Pluto impels, burns, consumes, transfigures, resurrects. In mythic and religious terms, it is associated with all myths of descent and transformation, and with all deities of destruction and regeneration, death and rebirth: Dionysus, Hades and Persephone, Pan, Medusa, Lilith, Innana, Isis and Osiris, the volcano goddess Pele, Quetzalcoatl, the Serpent power, Kundalini, Shiva, Kali, Shakti.
I'm a big fan of Richard Tarnas, so I thank you for that quote, Dave. As ever, Prof Tarnas makes me think further and deeper.

However, most of the attributes above were given to Mars/Ares in the Ancient World. Shiva the Destroyer is much closer, in his mythology, to Ares than to Hades. He's a warrior. I am very interested in the link between Hades and Dionysos - the twice-born (might not that newly discovered planet have been better attributed to him?) - but Dionysiac primordial chaos and renewal, creation and destruction, sexual intensity, depravity and purity are not generally seen in Hades: rather, Hades/Pluto provides the raw material for a part of the Dionysiac cycle - the death, putrefaction and preparation for rebirth (when there is rebirth: remember the Greeks weren't agreed on that one, and the Romans didn't think about it at all. Dionysos is the only being who was born twice.), while Ares provides another part of the cycle; and yet another part belongs to Dionysos's father Jupiter, and another is his alone. Dionysos is closer to Inanna in that sense - she who went imprudently to the underworld to meet its ruler; died; and rescucitated. The ruler of the underworld - her sister Ereshkigal - remains there, has none of the flexibility and liminal quality of Inanna - or Dionysos. She is a permanently unsatisfied, trapped goddess. Likewise, lonely Hades had to emerge briefly from his kingdom to kidnap his mate.

What I do find fascinating, in all these Underworld deities, is how much they need to burst above ground to capture life (Hades), or attract life underground (Ereshkigal). Unlike the psychocopomps, they don't walk easily between realms, they dwell permanently in the Underworld and if they emerge, it is only briefly. Rather, their prey is condemned to dwell below with them.

But they are not the destroyer gods. Hades doesn't cause death: he receives it. Ereshkigal likewise, doesn't cause death - except in the case of her sister Inanna, who came alive to the Underworld and thereby broke its laws. It's interesting that Ereshkigal, in Babylonian myths, married Nergal, the god of war and plagues: thus uniting in one realm the two functions of destruction and repose after death. It's also interesting that Inanna/Ishtar was goddess of heaven, of love - and of war and destruction: yet her incursion into the Underworld was viewed as intrusion. Underworld energies come into play after the destruction has taken place.


I think there is a very good case to be made for the inclusion among the outer planets of of a body that vibrates purely to cthonic energies (both Venus and Mars have cthonic associations, but these are not dominant). We need the Underworld, though we fear it. I am not at all convinced that it should be attached to any one sign - it is far too huge and universal - it touches the whole world. There is something inherently impersonal about the Underworld: it makes no distinctions, it captures everyone in the same way, it is our common destiny. Some people will die in war, some of disease, some of old age, some in accidents, some through excess, some through imprudence or crime. But once we have crossed the threshold - we all go to the Underworld, and the manner of our life and death makes no difference there - we are just another soul, deprived of personality and consciousness, an indistinct seed lying in a fallow field until it's time to grow again. In psychological terms, the Underworld is the place without ego. In spiritual terms, it is the place of the Dark Night of the Soul. In alchemical terms it is nigredo - the phase of putrefaction. In physical terms, it is the grave.


Quote:
With respect to Pluto’s discovery, the synchronistic phenomena in the decades immediately surrounding 1930, and more generally in the twentieth century, include the splitting of the atom and the unleashing of nuclear power; the titanic technological empowerment of modern industrial civilization and military force; the rise of fascism and other mass movements; the widespread cultural influence of evolutionary theory and Archai:
psychoanalysis with their focus on the biological instincts; increased sexual and erotic expression in social mores and the arts; intensified activity and public awareness of the criminal underworld; and a tangible intensification of instinctually driven mass violence and catastrophic historical developments, evident in the world wars, the holocaust, and the threat of nuclear annihilation and ecological devastation. Here also can be mentioned the intensified politicization and power struggles characteristic of twentieth-century life, the development of powerful forms of depth-psychological transformation and catharsis, and the scientific recognition of the entire cosmos as a vast evolutionary phenomenon from the primordial fireball to the still-evolving present.
I have to disagree with Prof Tarnas on several points he makes in the above paragraph: the 1930s, and the 20th century in general, was a time of ferment, rage and huge militarisation around the world, which led to two of the most terrible wars in history and a third that was cold only in name. Mars was no doubt very proud of his work. The titanic creations of the 20th century - and especially splitting the atom - are more properly Uranian. The decolonisation and civil rights movements, with their intense optimism and evangelical zeal, are Jupiterian. The increase in communications and the information superhighway, the ever-available news beamed in our sitting-rooms, the leap forward of all sciences, the mass deceit and criminalisation of millions through propaganda, the increase in intelligent crime - these are the work of Mercury; the gang wars and drug wars, on the other hand, bring us back to Mars. The explosion or opening up of erotica, free love, prostitution, sex crimes, sexual liberation, gay sexuality, naturism - all this movement is pure Aphrodite/Venus: she is the mistress of all sex - the good, the bad and the ugly. Pluto never was and it's bizarre and perverse to make him so; his only Venusian act was a rape. So Scorpio the sexual sign might as well be ruled by Venus! And as Mars is her lover, and rules intensity, energy and sex drive...

On the other hand, the deep plumbling of the human underworld through psychology, the acknowledgement of the hidden depths of humans, of matter, of darkest space; the desire to conquer death and the inability to do so; the obsession with the underworld treasures of oil and minerals; the overwhelming quest for material wealth at the cost of all else; the acknowledgement of rape as an intrinsic tool of control and manipulation of entire populations - all these are plutonian energies.

Many of the characteristics above (not only the plutonian) seem at home in Scorpio, and able to thrive in that most intensifying of signs - the plutonian energies, the martian, the venusian, the jupiterian and the uranian. I just don't see, in that situation, why it was necessary to replace one ruler with another: on balance, the Ancients picked Mars as the ruler, because its character was at home in Scorpio, as a warrior would be during a desperate night, who both made war and made love with all his rage and intensity and carried within him a capacity to destroy and to revive. Ares/Mars, the bringer of death, who originated as a cthonic god and became god of destruction, war, plagues - the enraged death-giver - but also a god of courage and endurance and the intense lover of Aphrodite, just seems to me to be a much better fit for Scorpio.



---ETA: Dave, Srkt's association with the windpipe comes from her association with death and healing, since scorpion poison brings both - and because the cause of death by scorpion poisoning is suffocation or pulmonary oedema. She was associated with Isis in her use of sorcery that is both beneficial and destructive, and closely associated with death. She is not a cthonic goddess, rather, a goddess who brings death and despatches her victims to the underworld (or saves them from it!). But the link to Taurus is interesting, not only because Taurus is the opposite sign to Scorpio, and so intimately linked to it through polarity, but also because some have associated or synchretised her with Het-her (Hathor), the cow-horned goddess, among whose attributes were sexuality, sensuality, beauty, dance and drink, rage, energy and vitality, empowerment of the pharaoh, erotic charge, and a tender light in the underworld - a mix of venusian, dionysiac, martian and even hekatian characteristics that the Egyptians, far less compartmentalising than the Greeks, felt at home with.

Of course, by the time the Zodiac came to be used in Egypt, it was ruled by Greeks
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Again, DS, blowin' my mind.. just like my dive into the history of the tarot, so too should we delve into the history of astrology, why it changed, and more importantly, when it changed. this might point us to better understand how the different astrologers interpreted them and what they based their knowledge on.

did the knowledge base change? did information get added or erased? how about plain mis-interpreted?
heres a funny question, in terms of pluto, did nostradamus (spelling) account for pluto? if he did, what effects did he document pluto having?

when interpreting pluto, what is true? what people thought 5,000+ years ago? or what people think now? key differences should be noted, and investigated.. if we ever want to continue growing our knowledge, we should take note of whats already in effect, understanding it, and figuring out where its deviated, bring it into line, and then we'll be able to move on.
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