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Probably right Fudu, I don't know about any works of Mr. N talking about how to do what he did, only works where he showed the products of his art.

Though we may look to works by who taught Mr. N or other educational materials from that time period, also, since we can now calculate Pluto's positions we could bacctracc and evaluate it's influence through historical evidence, this still woulden't answer the top posts question, but it would assist us in understanding where Pluto REALLY stands in it's relationship with us.

To answer more directly the origin post, Mars would be the original ruler, and, when I first started researching it, I thought Mars was it's ruler, made more memorable since I still thought that half through making my own chart and saw mars was in Scorpio, I was like "whoa", come to find out later in reading Pluto was the ruler (by 'the only astrology book you'll ever need') and finding out that pluto too was in my first house aligned with mars in scorpio.. so either way the ruler actually swings there is a signifigant influence in my own personal reading, how you interpret it is entirely up to you.
(I'd still go with mars, why change something thats been that way for hundreds of years just to accomodate 'science' right? besides, Mars, the planet that dominates our psyche as the 'bloody planet' the god of War's planet, seems fitting to Scorpio. thats just how I feel, use whatever feels right to you.)
Top   #71
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I am finding this thread so interesting. I have much I'd like to say but unfortunately limited time to try and put it into coherent sentences so I'll apologise in advance if my post makes no sense.

I think whether you use the outer planets or not isn't such a big issue. I just find that rulership of signs by the outer planets doesn't make any sense at all. Regardless of whether there is affinity or not. I also think that unless you have an understanding of the traditional approach there is no way you can dismiss it outright. Well, of course you can, but it just seems odd to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz
The basis of rulership as established in the Hellenistic period and used down to the present day is relational. The Sun and Moon, King and Queen of Heaven rule the Summer signs - Cancer and Leo (Culturally Western Astrology is a northern hemisphere system). In opposition to them is Saturn, the then furthest known body from Earth. Saturn rules Winter - and the signs Capricorn and Aquarius - it's opposition to Sun and Moon is one of the building blocks of Astrology. - it symbolises why oppositions are stressful or 'malefic'. The other planets take their turn in Chaldean order - working inwards. Jupiter rules Pisces and Sagittarius, trining the Moon and Sun respectively - it's the origin of why Trines are beneficial, they carry the characteristic of Jupiter.

Next comes Mars, ruling Aries and Scorpio, squaring the Moon and Sun respectively - it's why squares are also stressful, they have carry the characteristics of Mars.

Venus rules Taurus and Libra - a sextile to Moon and Sun - sextiles carry the characteristics of Venus

Lastly Mercury rules the remaining signs of Gemini and Virgo.
For me this is what it really comes down to. When I first understood this it was like I finally 'got' astrology. The beauty of it for me is the symetry and the system. Actually, I have somewhere a graphic image that shows this very clearly but will need to dig around and se if I can find it.


Also, I can't find the quote now but somewhere in this thread I remember Minderwiz saying that Psychological Astrology needs the outer planets. This is interesting. Is is because this type of astrology was developed with those planets in use, or because the archetypes of those planets are important and not covered by the traditional planets?

Finally, thanks to Fudugazi for the very interesting posts on Mythology. I find mythology fascinating and it always factors in to my understanding. Interestingly though I did read somewhere recently (not sure where) that in Hellenistic times there is no evidence to suggest that the attributes associated with planets had anything to do with the Gods/Goddesses/Myths from which their names were taken. Anyone else read or heard this? I find it a bit surprising actually. I'm finding it reasonably easy to change my thinking to the traditional style and I can let go of the outer planets....but letting go of the myths....that would be tough!
Top   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sapienza
I am finding this thread so interesting.

The beauty of it for me is the symetry and the system.

Finally, thanks to Fudugazi for the very interesting posts on Mythology.
Agreed on all counts, hahah!

I've read that Pluto relates to Scorpio because the Scorpio is unchanging, unwavering and very focused. Pluto changes sign every 21 YEARS, compared to the very changeable Moon which changes sign every 2.5 DAYS. But ... I find it easier to talk a Scorpio into a beautiful dress than to try and convince a Taurus-afflicted Gemini to leave a boring Broadway show. Would not Pluto's un-changeability better pertain to Taurus then? Taurus is the more stubborn.

Or even Cancer. According to the FBI website fbi.gov, Cancers are usually known for being mostly passion killers. They kill multiple times and they leave some kind of markings on their victims' bodies to distinguish themselves. Scorpio is 4th last in the statistics. The mythology of the crab is an individual who fights Hercules with a cancerian contempt of death, the earliest kamikaze, or a bee which stings an enemy sacrificing its sting and its own life as a result. As posted before, Pluto is connected to death, but would not Cancer be more fitting for Pluto?

Here's the source if anyone's interested:
http://www.astrostar.com/Astrology-Serial-Killers.htm

Finally, as for Pluto's status as a planet .. The Sun and Moon aren't, astronomically speaking, planets. But if we remove those two, would not two of astrology's most important planets disappear?

I hope I don't come off too aggressive. I'd like to know what people think.
Top   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sapienza
I did read somewhere recently (not sure where) that in Hellenistic times there is no evidence to suggest that the attributes associated with planets had anything to do with the Gods/Goddesses/Myths from which their names were taken. Anyone else read or heard this? I find it a bit surprising actually. I'm finding it reasonably easy to change my thinking to the traditional style and I can let go of the outer planets....but letting go of the myths....that would be tough!
The Babylonians certainly thought the planets they named and the deities they named them for were one and same, and it's their vision of the cosmos and their calculations that the Greeks adopted, simply changing the names to fit their own deities (including chosing corresponding deities - so, for example, Ishtar was Aphrodite/Venus).
In fact - one could even put it the other way: it seems a number of the myths were told to explain cosmic and astronomic events! So for instance, the dying god/bull of the sky myth and festival (the famous lamentations for Dumuzi/Tammuz) is directly linked with the disappearance ("death") of the constellation Taurus from the night skies every year... and it corresponded with the beginning of the grain harvest in Sumer, i.e. the summer solstice - the event was therefore both astronomical and agricultural - it was turned into a myth. Taurus, of course, is ruled by Venus - the Sumerian/Babylonian Inanna/Ishtar, who marries Dumuzi at the spring equinox (when Taurus rose at the horizon in the period 4000-1700 BC). The story of Inanna and Dumuzi found its way into Greek mythology in the story of Aphrodite and Adonis (Adonis comes from the semitic "adon", meaning "lord" )


Mars was named for the god of war because of its red colour. A quote from Deborah Houlding's Skyscript page:
Quote:
The ancient Babylonians paid particular attention to the blood-red colour of Mars; they associated it with warfare, and personalised it with the identity of Nergal, the feared lord of the Underworld and author of devastation. Nergal was a powerful and much feared god. His spouse, Ereshkigal, was queen of the Underworld and his messenger, Namtar, was the demon who brought plague to mankind.
Nergal was god of war and plague, who went to the Underworld, had very raunchy sex with Ereshkigal, then dumped her. Eventually, he repented and the two married - the god of war and plague being made consort of the Queen of the Underworld. The astrology and myths surrounding Nergal/Mars therefore seem to have been born and progressed together. In the Hellenic period, its two moons were named after the two attendants of Mars, Fear and Panic (Phobos and Deimos).


The two - myth and cosmos - are inextricably linked, linked also to agricultural events of that time, and became the basis for the calendar. The agricultural events in Sumer and the calendar have changed - and the night skies have too, because of the precession of the equinoxes - but the marriage between myths and the cosmos remain.

(this was the case in Egypt too).
Top   #74
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Wow, seems I should research the babylonians, any idea how Norse Mythology alings in the 'cosmic, agricultural, mythological' sense?
Top   #75
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I've no doubt the Norse myths had much to say about cosmic-agricultural-mythical events, but I'm rather sketchy about them. It would be worth researching. Although, as far as I know, the Norse didn't contribute to the development of astrology.
Top   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sapienza

Also, I can't find the quote now but somewhere in this thread I remember Minderwiz saying that Psychological Astrology needs the outer planets. This is interesting. Is is because this type of astrology was developed with those planets in use, or because the archetypes of those planets are important and not covered by the traditional planets?
A lot of Astrologers following a traditional practice will argue that anything and everything can be incorporated into the traditional planet and sign rulerships. However I'm not so sure of that. Ideas may well be ruled by Mercury but when it comes to the substance of those ideas..... The Jungian Astrologer, Arthur Dione (Jungian Birth Charts) says that the outer planets, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto are connected to the Collective Unconscious. Now whether or not the Collective Unconscious has an objective existence (or indeed any meaningful existence) is irrelevant here, I don't see how the concept can be meaningfully symbolised using a traditional approach.

When it comes to personality disorders there are perhaps more clinical uses of the outer planets, In the context of Mother/child relations someone with Mars squaring the Moon, might have some anger or resentment against their mother, having Pluto squaring the Moon opens up all sorts of subtle issues and dimensions for the Consulting Astrologer. I also think many of them have a dependency on these planets that make them the first thing to look at in a chart rather than the last.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kibeth
I've read that Pluto relates to Scorpio because the Scorpio is unchanging, unwavering and very focused. Pluto changes sign every 21 YEARS, compared to the very changeable Moon which changes sign every 2.5 DAYS. But ... I find it easier to talk a Scorpio into a beautiful dress than to try and convince a Taurus-afflicted Gemini to leave a boring Broadway show. Would not Pluto's un-changeability better pertain to Taurus then? Taurus is the more stubborn.
The odd thing is that Pluto is literally extremely eccentric compared to the 9 'full' planets being inclined at 17 degrees to the ecliptic and having an orbit which passes inside the orbit of Neptune (leaving Neptune as the outermost planet) for some 20 years (it was last interior to Neptune between 1979 and 1999) - so Pluto actually 'wavers' quite a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kibeth
Finally, as for Pluto's status as a planet .. The Sun and Moon aren't, astronomically speaking, planets. But if we remove those two, would not two of astrology's most important planets disappear?
Astrology uses the original meaning of 'planet' being a 'wanderer' and it's an adjective applied to what the ancients regarded as a particular type of star - wandering stars and the other type being fixed stars. We still refer to fixed stars today, (though actually all stars are on the move but at a much slower perceived speed than the 'planets').
Top   #77
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......... such an interesting thought, you guys are spurring gear movements in my mind that had cobwebs on them, but once engaged, a new route of investigation opens. thank you.
Top   #78

 





 


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