Horary - Applying Aspects

[Paul]

O.k. -- Tarot and I are quite comfy together...But, I'm in the Astrology section.

Horary Astrology is fascinating, but I'm a novice. So, here comes by super duper, mega, ultra beginner's question:

When determining applying aspects (those that will happen), what exactly are those degrees listed in the aspects columns? You know, when it lists separating and applying aspects? What do the degrees tell me precisely? Is this the number of degrees and minutes it will take for the applying aspect to come together?

For example, the significator (say Venus) is applying to sextile with a job (say Mercury) in 3.06 -- what does "3.06" tell me? I was playing around with timing and was trying to figure out how to use these conjunctions, sextiles, and trines to determine when an event will happen.

Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere; I impatiently tried a keyword search.

 

[Minderwiz]

You are correct to say that applying aspects are related to the future and separating aspects are related to the past. I'm not sure what source you are using for your aspects but the usual practice is to quote aspects in terms of degrees, so 3.06 is most likely to mean that the planets concerned are currently 3 degrees and 6 minutes apart (and closing if the aspect is applying).

There are two issues to consider:

Firstly will the aspect actually perfect before something else happens. If the applying planet turns retrograde the aspect will not perfect. If one or other planet aspects a third planet before the perfection then the aspect doesn't count. There are various situations here and I don't really want to wander off point, so unless you want to pursue the matter I'll move on to the second point.

The second point relates to timing - does the 3.06 tell us anything in terms of when something will come to pass? Unfortunately this is not easy to answer. It depends on several factors, including the interpretative skills of the astrologer. Cardinal signs and cadent houses tend to indicate short periods, mutable signs and succedent houses indicate medium periods and fixed signs and angular houses tend to indicate long periods. The most frequent situation is a combination of two of these, which is where the interpretation skill comes in. Also short, medium and long terms are rather imprecise terms. Again interpretation skills might help to determine if its three hours, days weeks, months or years.

The question will give some context here. A question such as 'Will I get a better job?' Will have a long term of years and a short term of weeks. Succedent house plus cardinal sign would be interpreted as medium (its not fast plus fast which would indicate weeks) so the answer given would be about three months.

Some astrologers allow for volition, by making angular = fast if the querent has the will to act and cadent slow in such circumstances. But remember there must be the possibility that action can alter the outcome (in terms of time).

Timings are never perfect in horary and should only be stressed if the client asks for a time frame or the chart seems to be quite clear on the point.

 

[Paul]

You are correct to say that applying aspects are related to the future and separating aspects are related to the past. I'm not sure what source you are using for your aspects but the usual practice is to quote aspects in terms of degrees, so 3.06 is most likely to mean that the planets concerned are currently 3 degrees and 6 minutes apart (and closing if the aspect is applying).

I should have written it as 3 degrees (degree symbol) and 6', but couldn't figure out how to do that on here.

So on the Aspects section of the astrology software, it shows:

PLANET [AN ASPECT SYMBOL, LIKE TRINE] PLANET then 3 degrees 6 minutes then "applying" or "separating" then a much larger degree/minute amount.

These 2 planets do not appear anyway to be 3+ degrees apart at all-- in fact, they are quite far from each other. So, that's why I thought that it referred to when that particular aspect (example "trine") was coming into play.In fact, all of the planets listed in aspect show very low degrees apart.

But, I am super new to this.

 

[Minderwiz]

As you don't say what software you are using it's not easy to be precise in terms of what the 'report' says. Unlike a natal chart, a horary chart is more dynamic, you can and should consider future relevant aspects, even if the software says that they are not currently in orb. So an ephemeris should also be to hand.

It's important to grasp that the only aspects that should be considered are between planets that signify something in the horary question - e.g. querent and job. Other aspects will appear in the aspect list but are not considered.

Remember that the degree of separation when the chart is cast is not an indicator of strength in horary - though it may be an indicator of time IF the aspect does perfect. what is important is that the aspect WILL perfect at some time in the future. No perfection = no desired outcome. no matter how close the planets are to perfection when the chart is cast.

It's always worth doing a mental check on your aspects anyway,

Trines are between signs of the same element (e.g. Leo and Aries which are both fire)

Sextiles are between either masculine signs or between feminine signs, providing that they are of different modes - (e.g. Leo and Libra are both masculine but Leo is fixed and Libra is cardinal).

Squares are between signs of the same mode but one is masculine and the other feminine (e.g. Leo and Taurus are both fixed signs but Leo is masculine and Taurus feminine)

Finally Oppositions are between signs of the same mode and same gender (e.g. Leo fixed masculine and Aquarius fixed masculine)

Classically, conunctions are not aspects (planets can view each other) but corporal joining. Conjunctions are obviously same sign.

Notice aspects here are primarily based on the properties of the signs not the degree of separation When the aspects perfect the planets will obviously be in the appropriate signs, however if they are not in the appropriate sign when the chart is cast, one or both will have to change signs before perfection. This is usually taken as such an important change as to render the perfection futile. Unless there is a good contextual reason why this change can be accepted treat such aspects as signifying a failure of the required outcome. There is some debate relating to out of sign applying aspects at the time the chart was cast and whether these should be allowed to stand, if within certain orbs. However for the moment I will ignore such situations.

For horary the important thing is that the aspect will perfect before one or both planets leave their current sign. This means that The Moon can be at 10 degrees Leo and Jupiter at 25 degrees Sagittarius and the trine will be perfected. Unless the Moon or Jupiter aspects some other classical planet first this will have significance in your chart (assuming the Moon and Jupiter are significators of something related to the question). In this example the trine would not appear in the aspect list generated by your software but still determines the outcome of the question. You will need to look for it in the chart and ephemeris, not the aspect list.

Similarly if Jupiter has no significance in relation to the horary question then the trine is not relevant to the question even if the Moon is 24 degrees Leo and Jupiter at 25 degrees Sagittarius. This would stand out in the aspect list generated by your software but that doesn't make it relevant. The only role such a trine might play is to prohibit the Moon's application to a planet that does have some significance.(e.g. Saturn, signifying the object of the question at 28 degrees Sagittarius). Such a prohibition might signify that the actions of a third party, whether deliberate or not, prevent the outcome that is desired.

Remember that for horary the aspect MUST perfect and must be between planets relevant to the question, the degree of separation at the time the chart was cast will, at best be an indicator of timing and for irrelevant planets will have no importance at all.

 

[Paul]

Totally scrumptuous!

I use Winstar right now, BTW.

Very, very helpful.

I got the part about the planet needing to be relevant to the question, i.e. a significator of a person or event. I have seen in some Horary examples, the astrologers use other planets as "color" if you will, noting their benefic or malefic influences (as per planet) only in cases when these planets have not been identified as a signficator.

Also, could you say something about waxing and waning and how this affects perfection?

So, am I understanding you correctly, that the degree shown on the aspect list does indicate the number of degrees before the applying planet is in aspect to the other planet's orb? Therefore, these degrees MAY indicate timing-- then of course, paying attention to angular, succeedent, and cadent housing as combined with cardinal, fixed, and mutable signs?

I imagine that one could count those degrees on the chart and determine if the (faster) planet is about to cross a sign? Also, the Ephemeris, as you say.

Thanks again Minderwiz for your generous posts.

 

[Minderwiz]

Yes some astrologers do seem to go in for 'colour' in horary readings but my advice to you is to concentrate solely on the significators related to the question. When you can answer the question, colour might follow as a further step but remember its the answer to the question which is the object of horary - no amount of colour can compensate for a bad answer. concentrate on the question and don't add detail unless the querent asks for it.

The only exception to this is to look at the previous aspect made by the Moon, as this may give a reasonable indication of the flow of events. What you should concentrate on is the significators of the querent (Lord 1) or if the question is relating to a third party's situation, then the Lord of the relevant house - for example the Lord of the Seventh if the querent is asking a question on behalf of their partner. The other important significator is the planet signifying the object of the question. For example Lord 10 if the question is about a job, Lord Two if the question is about moveable property, Lord Four if the question is about real estate. It is far more important that you correctly identify the appropriate significator for the quessited, compared to adding any colour. The Moon can play an auxillery role in showing the flow of events, or may act as a second significator for querent or quessited.

Waxing Moons are more powerful than waning Moons but that does on affect the perfection of the aspect as such. What it does do is indicate the power to act of the person it signifies. At the full Moon the Moon is weak because it is in opposition to the Sun.

Essential and accidental dignities as a whole need to be considered as they indicate the power of various actors or the condition of objects where these are involved. With weaker aspects such as sextiles lack of dignity might indicate that the outcome may be difficult to achieve or there may be some problems before a successful outcome.

I don't use WinStar so I'm not sure of its report format. Assuming it is like other Astrology programs the aspect orb given for an applying aspect is the current separation between slower and faster planet. In the example you started the thread with, the aspect separation of 3 degrees 6 minutes is the current distance or orb between the two planets. If you use signs and houses as indicators of time then you are correct in your interpretation.

The problem is made a little more difficult as timings are the subject of interpretation and astrologer skill. Sometimes astrologers will use the ephemeris and look up the time till the aspect actually perfects and use that as the timing for the event. It depends if that is a better 'fit' to the answer to the question.

Be careful of counting the degrees on the chart to see if one or both planets will leave the sign. If the three degree separation is between Mercury at 13 degrees Leo and Venus at 16 degrees Saggitarius you might think that the aspect will perfect before either planet leaves the sign
. In fact if both planets remain direct and are swift in motion the aspect will not perfect until both planets have changed sign. Its like a car travelling at 75 miles an hour chasing a car travelling at 70 miles an hour, a great deal of distance will be travelled before the faster catches the slower.

I'm not sure of WinStar's facilities but you should also remember that there's one type of aspect which is quite important in horary but not used much outside. That is the Antiscion (plural Antiscia) and its opposite the Contrantisicion (plural contrantiscia). You should always check for these between relevant planets in your chart.

I'm quite happy to answer any of your queries, I enjoy discussing horary. However I would also suggest that you read a good horary text. Whilst Lilly's Christian Astrology is THE text, it is not really a good starting point for beginners. The two best texts I've read are Lee Lehman's 'Martial Art of Horary Astrology' and John Frawley's Horary Textbook. Anthony Louis' book on Horary Astrology is also a good beginners book.

 

[Paul]

Hello Minderwiz:

Thank you for your generous replies.
Anthony Louis' book arrived, and I am enjoying it immensely.
There are a lot of interesting parallels in Horary and Tarot Reading-- at least the way I read-- in how we look if a "tableau" is fit to be read as it correctly reflects the situation of the querent. As well, there are parallels in how the planets/cards interact in a reading.

The two Schools are complementing each other nicely.

I definitely have my eyes on the other titles; right now I am under a self-prescribed mandate to read 1 book from amazon.com at a time, and then order another, and so forth. We'll see how it goes.

 

[Minderwiz]

Hi Paul,

Glad you're enjoying Louis' book. It's a great introduction to horary. The best strategy by far is to read this book thoroughly, try out a few ideas and when you have a reasonable grasp of the concepts, then try one of the other titles.

I read Lilly after reading Louis but to be honest, reading either Lehman or Frawley is a better strategy. Read Lilly as your third or fourth book and when you have the time to deal with the seventeenth century prose. He is the master but distance makes it a little difficult to get into.

There are several other titles I've read but I come back to Lilly, Frawley and Lehman as my main texts and there are times when I still consult Louis.

Enjoy the reading!!