how much relevance are in the Decans?

[Atcandela]

I purchased my first Thoth deck the other day, and I'm using Duquette's Thoth Tarot book as a guide.

I was reading the Decans for the minor arcana and want to get some feedback on interpretating the decans in a layout.

For instance, how much of a significance is there in a decan card that has an unfavorable meaning in a layout vs. the same card in another deck that would read favorably?

I'm aware the interpretations of the Thoth are quite different from other decks. But with many years of knowing my own decks and how I interpret the minor arcana, the Thoth's use of the decans and it's meanings have thrown me for a loop. Including my own personal decan which suggests failure!
Talk about a kick in one's self-esteem here!

any thoughts?? ~A~

 

[Abrac]

If you wanted to quantify it, I would say the decans make up about 50% of the meaning. But that's just my opinion.

They play a significant role so I wouldn't simply ignore them, but by the same token, there are other factors to consider, so I wouldn't place an undo amount of emphasis on the decans.

 

[Aeon418]

Including my own personal decan which suggests failure!
Talk about a kick in one's self-esteem here!

I assume you're talking about the 7 of Disks?

The astrological attribution of Saturn in Taurus doesn't indicate failure all by itself. It is only when it is blended together with the qualities of the number 7 and the suit that failure rears it's head.

Saturn in Taurus tends to be very heavy and hard to move. This quality is naturally exacerbated and accentuated in the suit of Disks/Earth. Add to that the weakening influence of the number 7 and things begin to take a turn for the worse.

 

[Atcandela]

Aeon418:

I took a look at my astrological chart and was born while Saturn was in
Aries! Not that much better, I suppose?

Regardless, I will take the decans meaning in relation to how the other cards
are positioned in the reading.

In this case, Aeon are you suggesting that if there are other 7's or other numerical similarities that the influence of that decan is further enhanced
by these numerical attributes?

I think I follow what you're saying but want to be clear first.

 

[sapienza]

Hi there Atcandela. I think I understand your confustion so I'll try and help out if I can. I'm no expert compared to others around here but I do remember being where you are not all that long ago.

The 'meanings' associated with the minor arcana cards as developed by the Golden Dawn (and used in the Thoth deck) use many different factors to arrive at the meaning. Firstly, there is the astrological pairing such as Saturn in Taurus. Then there is the number of the card which is linked to the sephiroth on the tree of life. So in this instance, 7, which links to the Sephiroth called Netzach or Victory. Despite the positive name, Netzach isn't such a postive place. So, when you combine Saturn in Taurus AND Netzach - then you have failure. There are ALSO attributions associated with each decan which are separate to the astrological pairing. These attributions are derrived from a book called the Picatrix and are also stirred into the mix to come up with the final meaning. DuQuette doesn't mention these in his book but you can find them in Paul Huson's book 'Mystical Origins of the Tarot'. For the Seven of Disks the Decan meaning from the Picatrix says "It is a decan of misery, slavery, necessity, madness, and baseness". This would also contribute to the final meaning of the card as 'The Lord of Failure' I expect.

When you mention that Seven of Disks is your personal card then I expect this is because you Sun was in that decan when you were born. I really wouldn't lose a lot of sleep over having this card in that position as your sun is only one very small part of your overall astrological make-up. Also, even though your Saturn was in Aries, with the 7 of Disks the astrological decan link is Saturn in Taurus so they are not connected.

I think there might be a bit of confusion when you say decan as to whether you are referring to the decan description (from the Picatrix) or the decan that the card links too and therefore the Astrological associations. Anyway, I'm not sure if I've made it clearer or just more confusing. I guess ultimately it's important to remember that none of these things are separate. They are all combined to create a 'meaning' or title for each card. When the Seven of Disks comes up in a spread then you are dealing with 'The Lord of Failure'. How this pans out in the situation is the part that is up for interpretation.

As difficult as it is, when working with the Thoth I'd really try and let go of the images from the RWS or RWS inspired decks. Waite approached his deck slightly differently and although he used the Golden Dawn meanings he also incorporated the older meanings from Etteilla and so many of his cards have been illustrated in an attempt to show BOTH the GD and Etteilla. Incidenally Etteilla assocaited this card with money and riches, which is quite different from success unfulfilled. I think the RWS illustration tries to capture both.

One last thing.....in the Thoth deck some of the Golden Dawn titles have been changed. The Golden Dawn called the 7 of Disks 'The Lord of Success Unfullfilled'. Crowley has changed that to 'The Lord of Failure'.

This thread has a lot of interesting info on decans if you want to have a look.

Good luck.