RWS Revelation - An Astrological Blind?

[cbfdoll]

I have a suspicion that Waite and Smith may have been cleverly concealing some important astrological info.

The cards of the major arcana were each given, only single associations (planets, signs, or elements).

But the numbered cards of the minor arcana were each given both a planet and sign association based on the Chaldean planetary order.

I think what has thrown most folks off from closer examination has been the numbers themselves though.

For example, haven't most of us assumed that the 8 of Wands is a natural opposition to the 8 of Swords?

But what if it's not (and never was).

What if, the natural opposition to the 8 of Wands (Mercury in Sagittarius) is instead a card associated with Mercury in Gemini?

And what if the natural opposition to the 8 of Cups (Saturn in Pisces) is a card associated with Saturn in Virgo?

And what if, after all possible opposing associations were made between the Major and Minor Arcana (2 x 36 = 72), there were 6 major arcana cards left over?

What planetary associations would these cards have?

If you're scratching your head at this point (wondering what the heck I'm talking about), then you might enjoy trying out these three mini "visual" exercises to see the point illustrated a little clearer.

(please use a RWS deck for this experiment!)

1) Place the 8 of Swords (Jupiter in Gemini) next to Temperance XIV (Jupiter in Sagittarius). Examine them side by side. What do you see?

2) Now try placing the 8 of Pentacles (Sun in Virgo) next to The Hanged Man XII (Sun in Pisces). What do you see?

3) Now form a "cross" spread by taking the Moon XVIII card (Moon in Pisces) and placing it at the center of a table. Directly above it place The Hermit IX (Saturn in Virgo), and directly below goes the 8 of Cups (Saturn in Pisces). To the right side, place The Fool 00 (Mercury in Gemini), and to the left goes the 8 of Wands (Mercury in Sagittarius). What do you see?

symbols to note: the Fool's dog, the Hermit's face, the guy dressed in red exiting the water on the 8 of Cups, and the direction of the 8 of Wands image (Mercury in its "Fall").

Can you see a reflection of these cards in the Moon XVIII?

Coincidence?

(well, if nothing else we may at least have a better idea what the Fool has been gazing at all this time...)

Claire

 

[brightcrazystar]

I have a suspicion that Waite and Smith may have been cleverly concealing some important astrological info.

The cards of the major arcana were each given, only single associations (planets, signs, or elements).

No card in the deck has a single association. Each has an infinity of associations.

But the numbered cards of the minor arcana were each given both a planet and sign association based on the Chaldean planetary order.

I think what has thrown most folks off from closer examination has been the numbers themselves though.

For example, haven't most of us assumed that the 8 of Wands is a natural opposition to the 8 of Swords?

Nope. That is not my assumption, nor did I know most people think Fire and Air are in natural opposition, unless they misunderstand the Elements of Air and Fire. Both are HEAT. One is Dry, one is wet.

But what if it's not (and never was).

It never was for me. I am glad you are realizing that maybe there is some structure. Hope you find one that works!

What if, the natural opposition to the 8 of Wands (Mercury in Sagittarius) is instead a card associated with Mercury in Gemini?

And what if the natural opposition to the 8 of Cups (Saturn in Pisces) is a card associated with Saturn in Virgo?

This in NOT exactly the case. Each sign is divided into three decans of 10 degrees. These are ONE of the associations with the Pip cards, 2-10 of exah suit. They model this way:

2,3,4 - Cardinal Sign of the Element of the Suit
5,6,7 - Fixed Sign of the Element of the Suit
8,9,10 - Fixed Sign of the Element of the Suit

Thus 8 of wands is the 1 first decan of the Sign of Sagittarius is opposition, Astrologically, to 8 of swords. This is not their major connection, but it is one of them. Note, opposition doesn't mean they are bad together, it means the are part of the square of that Trine of Cardinal, Fixed and Mutable qualities. They can support each other - it is other apspects which may weaken that beam, or imbalanced house size.

So these two, are one bar of the square that also includes 8 of Disks (Virgo's 1st decan) and 8 of Cups (Pisces's First Decan)[/quote]

And what if, after all possible opposing associations were made between the Major and Minor Arcana (2 x 36 = 72), there were 6 major arcana cards left over?

What planetary associations would these cards have?

If you're scratching your head at this point (wondering what the heck I'm talking about), then you might enjoy trying out these three mini "visual" exercises to see the point illustrated a little clearer.

(please use a RWS deck for this experiment!)

You are seeing effects of the Tree of Knowledge before the Fruit were plucked. They are part of a different set of Qabala used in the A.'.O.'., that the Golden Dawn was an outer order of. I am unsure if it is published, and if was was, if it is in print. It is a model of the tree of life before Da'ath is plucked in the Garden. The "Tree of Life" is the model most people know, but that is the model marred by the eating of the forbidden fruit. But traces of that perfection are still in all of creation. So residue of it is in the cards. Also some assumptions popularized about Astrology and Symbolism are not always as accurate or as old as they seem.

Remember, this is a Way of Return according to the beliefs of Waite and Pixie.

(well, if nothing else we may at least have a better idea what the Fool has been gazing at all this time...)

The sky, anew. That is what the fool is looking at.

In the Hebrew, for example, Aleph is Leo. It is air in the Western System. The thing is we know what the Leo referred to is "The Heart", hence Lionheart. In Science we know know the heart's purpose is to deliver oxygen to the body - it functions to fulfill Delivery of Air. Both relate to yellow.

People mistakenly think Air is represented by the sword. It IS NOT. And the worst suit to most eyes, in the Minor Arcanum, is Swords. Most people think this is bad. But in science these refer to the free radicals which cause arterial tears, RELEASING cells from their ability to contain air. The heart is not Leo. The Heart is Aries, and to incarnate means you will endure death, almost assuredly caused by free radicals. The Most common method of death is Heart Disease. This truth is in the 2,3,4 of swords which opposite the 2,3,4 of Wands. They Square the 2,3,4 of Disks, with one set of traits, and the 2,3,4 of cups with another. Aleph is not Leo, it is Air, specifically oxygen. But swords DIVIDE AIR, they do not represent it; just as Free Radicals destroy intact cellular structures, as found in the 5,6,7 of swords, for the gains and by guidance in the 5,6,7 of disks preying upon the desires in 5,6,7 of cups, to overcome the stress of the 5,6,7 of wands. 8,9,10 complete the cycle of biophysiology, in brief context. (and no there is no book where I got this. I just study alot, build my visibility to the cards, and employ them. I study subjects and look for them in Tarot, not the other way around.)

So in the plane of biophysiology, the Sign Aries owns the traits previously attributed to Leo. The Emperor is the Heart, not Strength.

The reason is CLEAR. See, in ancient times, they beleived that the heart was a organ like we consider the brain. The word "mind" and "heart" are synonymous even to this day to some. The entire body is a thinking organ... it is the Heart that provides the oxygen it needs, though the blood it is supplied - which is created elsewhere. The commoner thought the blood was made in the heart, and that it came through man into to this word, from a vast ocean of "cosmic blood" all life came from. The Priests knew it was from another mystery, an unseen one.

Hope that clarifies,
Ch

 

[cbfdoll]

No card in the deck has a single association. Each has an infinity of associations.

But are you certain that an infinity of astrological associations per card was Waite's intent? If so, please explain.

Nope. That is not my assumption, nor did I know most people think Fire and Air are in natural opposition, unless they misunderstand the Elements of Air and Fire. Both are HEAT. One is Dry, one is wet.

Yes, Aries is opposite to Libra, Leo to Aquarius and Sagittarius to Gemini.

and Mars in Aries is arguably happier than in Libra.

Thus 8 of wands is the 1 first decan of the Sign of Sagittarius is opposition, Astrologically, to 8 of swords. This is not their major connection, but it is one of them. Note, opposition doesn't mean they are bad together, it means the are part of the square of that Trine of Cardinal, Fixed and Mutable qualities. They can support each other - it is other apspects which may weaken that beam, or imbalanced house size.

But was this Waite's intent?

If the 8 of Swords was supposed to have a connection to the 8 of Wands (other than numerical), then why does it carry so many more visually obvious connections to the Temperance card?

It never was for me. I am glad you are realizing that maybe there is some structure. Hope you find one that works!

Thanks! And for explaining about the significance of the heart and suit associations as well. I'd wondered which of the 2,3, or 4 of Swords was the intended opposite of the Emperor. Obviously it's the 3.

The sky, anew. That is what the fool is looking at.

Nope. I'm fairly certain it's the Hermit's posterior

Claire

 

[KariRoad]

Imho

Begin with "The Magician" as Letter 1 Aleph (Air) and work from there to understand:

1 Aleph - AIR The Magician
13 Mem - WATER the card with no name "XIII"
21 Shin - FIRE The World

2 The High Priestess (The Moon) is revealed as EARTH in the exaltation of The Moon in Taurus: the Sign of Fixed Earth, and the only Fixed sign with an exaltation.

Work it out.

Tarot is an open book, but the books written about Tarot are false.

Way big clue: The Magician's table has 3 legs ~ aleph mem shin.

 

[Richard]

......Tarot is an open book, but the books written about Tarot are false.....

A. E. Waite may have been a devious dude, but I don't think that necessarily applies to P. F. Case and A. Crowley (in spite of his Book of Lies, falsely so called ) Just because a certain system works for you doesn't mean that the proponents of differing systems are wrong. Maybe we should all just back off and not be too religious (I'm right, you're wrong).

 

[cbfdoll]

There are a lot of Tarot decks and as many workable systems out there and books written about them to keep everyone busy for a lifetime.

I'm interested in what A.E. Waite and Pamela Colman Smith put on the cards of their own Tarot deck, and in particular on the imagery of the minor arcana.

From what I understand, they chose to assign the Chaldean planetary order and signs to these cards. For better or for worse, it is what it is.

Waite had a reason for it, and from what I see in front of me, there are clear visual and astrological links between these and the cards of the major arcana.

This is not an opinion. It's a fact. Overlay whatever other system you wish, but the one Waite used is revealed on the pictures of the cards themselves.

The 8 of Wands is associated with Mercury in Sagittarius. This is Mercury in the sign of its fall and is exactly what the picture shows.

I understand that Arthur Waite used the astrological cards of the minor arcana to reveal what was purposely left out of the majors.

Apparently, he enjoyed creating puzzles for others to solve. And in that sense, he's a man after my own heart.

He calls it a Pictorial Key to the Tarot. Maybe it is what it is.

 

[cbfdoll]

You are seeing effects of the Tree of Knowledge before the Fruit were plucked.

No. What I am seeing is the Moon XVIII (Moon in Pisces) surrounded by four other cards with such starkly direct & obvious visual/astrological links to one another that they might as well be pieces of a jigsaw puzzle.

What this five card layout reveals is:

1) All five cards are linked by mutable signs, four elements and three planets.
2) The Hermit in Virgo is located at the summit
3) The card opposite is the 8 of Cups (Saturn in Pisces).
4) Therefore, the Hermit is Saturn in Virgo.
5) The Fool is located directly opposite to Mercury in Sagittarius.
6) Therefore the Fool is Mercury in Gemini.

Waite didn't lie. He simply told half of the story.

 

[cbfdoll]

The High Priestess (The Moon) is revealed as EARTH in the exaltation of The Moon in Taurus: the Sign of Fixed Earth, and the only Fixed sign with an exaltation.

That may be true. But in the RWS card system, Moon in Taurus is assigned to the 6 of Pentacles.

 

[brightcrazystar]

A. E. Waite may have been a devious dude, but I don't think that necessarily applies to P. F. Case and A. Crowley (in spite of his Book of Lies, falsely so called ) Just because a certain system works for you doesn't mean that the proponents of differing systems are wrong. Maybe we should all just back off and not be too religious (I'm right, you're wrong).

LRichard,

Book of Lies, lol. Crowley was ahead of his time with that one. Then again, consider Waite with the "Book of Black Magic and Pacts" - which is a book of divine work and he says basically, "If the title scared you away, GOOD RIDDANCE!"

Paul Foster Case, A.E. Waite, and Aleister Crowey were all Libras. None of these men were quick or able to individually make up their mind. They all had a person of relation in the processes of creating these decks.

A.E. Waite/ October 2 - Pamela Colman Smith
E.A. Crowley/ October 12 - Lady Frieda Harris
P.F. Case/ October 3 - Jessie Burns Parke

These women were as much part of the process as the men. A.E. Waite was likely the man who was least likely to superintend the entire production of the Minor Arcanum. Each was working from Unpublished Papers, which have surfaced.

I know all these decks, the P.F.Case least of all, but all have working assumptions that vary in such a way that all the deck resolve to show the same thing, with different cards - each is a consistent planar "shift" that reconciles so well because each creates it's own balance. As a Libra, born on October 12 and a student of the Western and Eastern Mysteries, These decks speak well to my own internal language, for this and my personal past and my focused studies of their own work. That is why I use them. I am not saying I am UNIVERSALLY right in my speculations about their work. I am saying I have used them to learn my language pretty well.

I am at odds here, mainly because I could easily say, "I could give a damn what the creators intended." EXCEPT there are records that show my own observations, developed without a filter between me and my Tarot led me to study things that I tied back to Tarot. And they fit very well on these decks.

The main difference between the pip cards is between Case and Waite/Crowley astrologically, and between Waite and Crowley/Case in that Waite let Pamela Colman Smith a great deal more artistic liberty. He was largely unconcerned with most of the Major Arcanum. The cards he directed in that have his initials. One is, for example the 10 of Pentacles.

Book T is the main document all these Golden Dawn Magicians sourced for their Tarot. Paul F. Case, distrustful of Chaldean claims and Enochian elements, made changes to the system, including which planets are attributed to which decans of the signs.

This is key, 8 of wands, for example is not just "Mercury in Sagittarius,"

For Waite and Crowely,
It is, essentially, (my words) "The First 10 degrees of Sagittarius, wherein Mercury has a Chaldean Aspect; and suffers in its Fall." Their exact understanding of why this is the fall of Mercury varies, but their views are complimentary. The thing is they focus on the loss of mercury to make their case for Shortened force, by conflict with Jupiter, who rules Sagittarius.

For Case,
It is, essentially, (my words) The First 10 Degrees of Sagittarius, wherein Jupiter has a "Classical" Aspect, and reigns in its Domicile." He instead focuses on the Jupiter, which has shortened the force of the Mercury, that Crowley and Waite focus on, Waite by lack of enough drive, and Crowley by lack of direction.

The thing is NOTHING ever says in the Eights of Wands in RWS you are the archer, you could be the arrow, you could be the ground, or even the sky! So a "static" meaning of cards is an, in my opinion, incomplete way to read Tarot.

I have some very common astrology to each of these men, in the ways their strengths came through. I am not perfect, nor Sorceror Supreme in a way that all should bow before me and my wisdom, but I am sure I see these stuff in a syncretic way they all same the same thing. I have the same guidance.

Furthermore, even beyond Book T there were other guides, such as the Tree Before the Fall. And systems in which one element is given the qualities of another in cultural contexts, which is why Crowley's deck is so full of difficult points for people to read - he grew largely out of a Golden Dawn elemental simplicity much earlier.