Are you a Flat World Society Member?

[Rosanne]

I read these threads on History and respect each view put forward and think about what I think, in regards to the points raised. Then I decide for myself. I am a curious person and nothing is outside the range of possiblities to consider. Why am I so open minded (not gullible though)?
Aeons ago when I was at school here in New Zealand I was taught about 'The Great Migration' how Maoris came here in 1300 in a fleet of fifteen canoes. It was in all the History books, by reputed historians of the day and taught as 'fact'. I can remember thinking how wonderful they all stayed together and then, when they saw the land of the long white cloud, did they flip a coin and decide which canoe was going to keep going to an unknown destination? I also wondered how they knew there were 15 canoes? Did any get lost? Now I know that that migration happened over hundreds of years and Kupe the leader was only a remembered name from the misty past.
Then there is the wonderful find under some sand dunes on a remote harbour of a verified Viking helmet. Historians of great repute say it is impossible that Vikings visited our shores, it must have been lost by a coloniser, or a ship that fell foul of the coast - not a viking ship though. Because statistically there has been nothing else 'viking' found, so they have not visited here. Full stop . The End.
I like to dream and wonder, and most of all I like to dream about the origins of Tarot. I am not set in concrete about anything and although I will accept for now Tarot began in Italy in the middle ages and in France maybe before that.... what if it travelled with the Romani... the Phoenicians.....the Mongols...The Templars... The Atlanteans.... The Italian nobility...middle age pub crawlers...in the scheme of things what Tarot Historians have is a 'Viking Helmet'.
Please consider: when faced with another History viewpoint, I consider the thoughtful research that has gone into that view, I weigh it up in my own mind, and most likely I will bow to your superior knowledge on the subject. If you patronise me with this is the 'facts' and nothing else will be considered type vehement argument- I will assign you to the 'flat earth society membership' remember my History lessons at school, chuckle cynically,and dream on......I wonder if there where any Indian Hosteliers in France about 1100 AD? ~Rosanne

 

[firemaiden]

Well when you say "flat earth society" to my mind, you conjure up the notion of people clinging to superstitious beliefs, and who refuse to change their superstitions even in the face of factual evidence gathered by scientific method.

The belief in the flat earth was proven absurd by circumnavigation of the globe... there are still those today who would deny that species evolve... there are those who still believe planets go "retrograde", and that there are only four "elements" - to these I would like to offer admission to the flat earth society.

However, the historians who appear to be dryly stuck in facts, do not say you are not allowed to speculate and dream about what the origins may be... only that to before any such speculation may be seen as factually true, you must work to prove it with documentary or physical evidence.

 

[jmd]

Retrograde of course does occur, simply some of the explanation as to why this appearance occurs has altered as a shift occured in Ptolemaic geocentric to a heliocentric view.

Likewise, even prior to circumnavigation of the globe measurement of the diameter of the Earth had been worked out many centuries before year dot.

With regards to possible visits of Europeans to our neck-of-the-woods (ie, our not-so-remote parts of the world), there is some evidence that part of the large fleet that was stationed in India or Pakistan during Alexander's eastern conquests may have split up with some vessels reaching northern Australia and some micronesian islands - that's around 500 BC.

I'm not sure if part of the wondering about historical reflections that may be regarded as 'imprudent' are because of the reaction in another more recent thread, but personally would hope that each of us is both encouraged to seek for wide varieties of possibilities, whilst at the same time pointing out that in some circumstances, the reflections seem to be quite at odds with even some of the basis the post itself assumes.

There is of course also much that would be viewed as evidence were it to surface. Yet some of the evidence seems counter to some of the claims. For example, what kind of story would account for Phoenicians having Tarot as tarot?

Certainly there is evidence that individual imagery occurs prior to Roman Imperial times: the cardinal virtues in Greece and the Old Testament, and Maat, for example, in Egypt (amongst other examples). These are examples of similar impulses that not only manifest in various societies, but in this case may even be directly related via flows of ideas circling the Meditteranean.

But are these in any manner Tarot?

Of course, one may (against all possible odds at this stage of our communal understanding full of erroneous snippets) find an underground chamber in Egypt with 22 images organised upon two walls facing each other. But why even suggest this when no evidence presents itself? As part of a fictional story, it is a wonderful addition to the imaginative creative mind (as a similar story of a like underground initiatory chamber under the Moon's or Mars's soil would likewise be).

As legitimate possibility, I would personally have to accept many things before any of those would be considered likely (others may of course already accept those things I do not).

The Flat Earth Society is at odds not only with the long-time notion from ancient Phoenicians who could see that the world curved, but at odds with people who generally engage with the world a little more than taking a single translation of a single book as the un-erring literal explanation for the world and humanity.

 

[Rosanne]

It is only after the circumnavigation and a dream, that the flat Earth became was relegated to superstition belief- before that, even those on the voyage feared it was a true fact. With Tarot there are also missing years, yes, and there are some Historians that do not countenance speculation; and no, not all the Historians of Tarot dryly present facts- some make it live again with enthusiasm. To presenting with factual discovery; the Viking Helmet is a fact, how it got there is the speculating ~Rosanne

 

[firemaiden]

You seem to be standing up for creativity and the freedom to speculate. That is a noble aim. Creativity is the basis of invention and discovery. But please don't mistake a respect for the scientific method of inquiry with a squashing of creativity. Far from it.

The "fear of a true fact" has nothing to do with a proven fact. The operational term in this conversation is proof. Speculation is a fine, and even necessary part of acquiring knowledge. But it is the first step, the next step is gaining proof through inquiry and experimentation.

 

[Rosanne]

ahhh proof, that defining thing that lets men and women keep their heads at the Jester's Court.
I read this quote from Hans Christian van Baeyer in Taming the Atom.
"The physicist Leo Szilard once announced to his friend Hans Bethe that he was thinking of keeping a diary : 'I don't intend to publish. I am merely going to record the facts for the information of God.' 'Don't you think God knows the facts?' Bethe asked. 'Yes ,' said Szilard. He knows the facts but he does not know this version of the facts"
Lets make it personal to me. jmd I do not believe that the Phoenicians had Tarot, but I do like to speculate what energies the twenty two letters describe and marvel at how close those energies are, to what we have now as Majors in Tarot
I believe that the TdM La Papesse is a depiction of the Magdalene. I present my arguments for that elsewhere here. I firstly speculated, then I researched as much as I was able, then I postulated this theory. That's what it is- a theory. I have some facts mainly based on a card, the time frame and images presented in other ways in the same time frame. At no stage do I believe I have the only facts, or that everyone who disagrees with me is wrong- thats what makes it so interesting.... and the thought that I might be right.
Here, sometimes on this forum one who has a different theory and offers it for consideration is stomped on with a rightous vengance. Maybe they are only on their first step of speculation; maybe like me they are airing views to see if there is any interest- making an enquiry and starting experimentation. They are not treated well in some instances by people who think they have the only right answer. ~Rosanne

 

[Jewel-ry]

When I was at school, I dont know about 10-11 something like that...I can remember sitting in a Geography lesson and it occurred to me that Africa would slot very nicely in that groove between north and south America. I was pooh-poohed by the teacher but it stuck with me for a very long time. I was completely enthralled by the idea and was amazed that my teacher could dismiss my suggestion so flippantly when it made so much sense to me!

It was much later on that I found out about the theory of plate tectonics which had been developed in the 1960's. I was like Wow!

My point is...how many children sat in that same classroom, with the same thoughts, and how many teachers must have dismissed this suggestion in exactly the same way?

Dismissal is not conducive to learning.

I like to dream too

 

[Diana]

Lets make it personal to me. jmd I do not believe that the Phoenicians had Tarot, but I do like to speculate what energies the twenty two letters describe and marvel at how close those energies are, to what we have now as Majors in Tarot

Many many times in the past, and in the future too, I have said and will say that when some people talk about tarot they are talking about tarot cards - pretty little pictures on pieces of cardboard; others when they speak of Tarot speak of the Essence behind the pretty pictures on the pieces of cardboard; and others, when they speak of The Tarot, refer to both the pretty pictures and the Essence.

There are others perhaps who speak of something completely different.

We speak often at cross-purposes, thinking that the other person is referring to the same tarot or Tarot as we are.

It depends also very much on the context of the conversation. And there is nothing to stop someone from talking of tarot, Tarot or The Tarot, depending on this context.

 

[Rosanne]

Dismissal is not conducive to learning.
I like to dream too

That is the perfect word 'Dismissal' and you are so right with its outcome! ~Rosanne

 

[Rosanne]

It depends also very much on the context of the conversation. And there is nothing to stop someone from talking of tarot, Tarot or The Tarot, depending on this context.

Sacre bleu! There is Tarot without a capital? ~Rosanne