Cold Case: Sister Catherine Cesnik.

Ruby Jewel

But the question was why she was killed not who killed her - that came up in a later question as to WHO.


DND :)

When I look at "why she was killed," first thing I see is 'hate' as represented, not only by the Snake, but also by the brutality and humility involved. Jealousy breeds that kind of entrenched hate. If it had been an assassination due to political causes, a simple bullet or two to the head and be done with it and gone from the scene is always the protocol. This was more than just a political "erasure".... this act was an act of mutilation and degradation as if to say, "see...this is all 'miss goody two-shoes' really ever was." Imo that eliminates the idea that she was murdered because of what she "knew". This was an act of personal revenge (Snake)...and implicates her so-called 'friends.'...as has been noted a few times by Dog. The friend was probably a covert narcissist as indicated by the Bouquet, which keeps turning up along with Snake. I would want to know which of her friends "left town" after the deed. (Ship)

And, further, this would call the whole concept of a "cover up" into question. A "cover up" implies it was political...within the Catholic Church and many people involved....I say 'bah humbug' to that....just a smoke screen thown up to create intrigue. The Cross represents suffering...she suffered.

It would be interesting to go back through these readings and count the times each of the cards has turned up. Then take a look, or maybe do a reading with the top 5 or 9. I would do it myself, but these are your readings and your cards so they would not work for me.
 

DownUnderNZer

This was about the WHO based on if it was male. Question 4.

About the frequent cards like "Bouquet", as each spread is connected to a different question, the answer varies somewhat. "Bouquet" in the first question could be about a townhouse/ condos with gardens and it is most definitely about going out and shopping or to dinner/movies/massage parlour/ nail salon - not the extreme like you wrote although that is your spin. The question is key to how the cards are read. "Snake" I can see as a "jealous woman" if looking at it in the "German style" of reading the Lenormand. And it came up in the GT as a possibility as well.

Do not think I need to look at strong theme cards coming through at all. If I wanted clarification or to look at another idea - then I would do it.

DND :)


7 cards and random selection face down in a fan.

Focus Card: "Man".

Lily/Letter/Cross/MAN/Clover/Moon/Snake

So, possibly older than Cesnik or one with more life experience, lived at a distance or came from a different place before living in Baltimore, maybe someone that had a knack for writing, religious or the world on his shoulders type, an opportunist or gambler, known or recognized, creative, emotional and someone not really trustworthy or honest only this would not have been hidden. A trouble maker.

As for features: Possibly slender build, agile, metro or feminine looks and hair on the long side. Fair to medium skin tone.


NOTE: Need to look back at photos of Edgar and Bill as both were slender, not sure about agile, but both could fit in with metro or feminine looks. Not sure about long hair either. Edgar gambled. Not sure if Bill did.


NOTE II: However, it does not mean it was either of these two men, as they have never been tied to Cesnik or the crime really and back then plenty of young people likely had long hair as it would have been in the hippie days and before Flower Power of whatever it was called.



DND :)
 

Ruby Jewel

This was about the WHO based on if it was male. Question 4.

About the frequent cards like "Bouquet", as each spread is connected to a different question, the answer varies somewhat. "Bouquet" in the first question could be about a townhouse/ condos with gardens and it is most definitely about going out and shopping or to dinner/movies/massage parlour/ nail salon - not the extreme like you wrote although that is your spin. The question is key to how the cards are read. "Snake" I can see as a "jealous woman" if looking at it in the "German style" of reading the Lenormand. And it came up in the GT as a possibility as well.

Do not think I need to look at strong theme cards coming through at all. If I wanted clarification or to look at another idea - then I would do it.

DND :)
I wasn't implying that you should do anything. I just said I would find it interesting to take note of the cards that keep appearing in your readings. Unlike you, I think the question, in and of itself, is a moot point....both in tarot and also in oracles of any kind. Imo, the cards respond to energy, and are not limited by specific questions. Of course, that is just what works for me, and in no way implies that you should agree. As for "Bouquet", I find the card to be very significant since it keeps turning up. If all it means to you is that she went shopping or was on other minor excursions, well then, that's all it means to you....but I think the card goes much deeper than that.

Since you are not open to alternative theories or themes, I will leave you to your musings which fit with your fixed foregone conclusions; and inasmuch as you are not looking for clarification or "another idea" .... I really have nothing more to say that could be of interest to you....and that is okay. We just see things differently.
 

DownUnderNZer

Now I did a bit of profiling of my own on the side and what I will say is I think it is quite obvious that the killer, especially if it was not one off, would likely have been "White" or "Caucasian" and quite possibly "Male". "Male"I reckon because I believe she was violated sexually.


1) I put him in his 20's.
2) Day job if killing at night or even unemployed.
3) Hatred of women and likely from a dysfunctional family.
4) Mother/Father issues. May have had no father in the scene actually.
5) Issues with authority figures which would also mean the law.
6) Likely in trouble with the law - so known.
7) Familiar with the area - so likely a local.
8) Violent rage and easy to trigger.


Just found a CRIMINAL PROFILE on Cesnik's likely killer done in 1994 and based on the assailant being random:


free screen capture


Interesting I reckon.


DND :)










7 cards and random selection face down in a fan.

Focus Card: "Man".

Lily/Letter/Cross/MAN/Clover/Moon/Snake

So, possibly older than Cesnik or one with more life experience, lived at a distance or came from a different place before living in Baltimore, maybe someone that had a knack for writing, religious or the world on his shoulders type, an opportunist or gambler, known or recognized, creative, emotional and someone not really trustworthy or honest only this would not have been hidden. A trouble maker.

As for features: Possibly slender build, agile, metro or feminine looks and hair on the long side. Fair to medium skin tone.


NOTE: Need to look back at photos of Edgar and Bill as both were slender, not sure about agile, but both could fit in with metro or feminine looks. Not sure about long hair either. Edgar gambled. Not sure if Bill did.


NOTE II: However, it does not mean it was either of these two men, as they have never been tied to Cesnik or the crime really and back then plenty of young people likely had long hair as it would have been in the hippie days and before Flower Power of whatever it was called.



DND :)
 

DownUnderNZer

Have been a busy little couch detective since last night.

Have not found any further Criminal Profiling on Cesnik's killer, but have been able to compare "4" other murders that followed after, also, I have done a quick course or run down on "Forensic Psychology" which has a more accurate approach I feel. (Good thing I studied Psychology even if it has been years as that really has paved the way).

Now, without seeing the crime scene, autopsy report, victim photos or knowing the ins and outs of the victims day etc etc etc it is really hard to put a proper profile together plus it is not really my area either. And it has been almost 50 years since the murders.

What I put together below in quotes still stands - no change.

However, now that I know more about how all of these victims died based on newspaper reports and people that knew them I actually think Cesniks' killer was in his late teens to mid 20s at the time. 28 yrs old would be the limit.

The other victims: Malecki, Montayne, Conyers, and Metzler.

Malecki and Conyers I feel were connected more so than Cesnik and Malecki, Cesnik and Montayne had their own killers, and as for Metzler I put her killer at mid to late 20s to 40. And on looking up Metzler more, I found someone was charged for her murder in 1978, and on looking up his age at the time of the murder he would have been "31 years of age". So, I was correct with the age group.


Been a very interesting time.....


DND :)



Now I did a bit of profiling of my own on the side and what I will say is I think it is quite obvious that the killer, especially if it was not one off, would likely have been "White" or "Caucasian" and quite possibly "Male". "Male"I reckon because I believe she was violated sexually.


1) I put him in his 20's.
2) Day job if killing at night or even unemployed.
3) Hatred of women and likely from a dysfunctional family.
4) Mother/Father issues. May have had no father in the scene actually.
5) Issues with authority figures which would also mean the law.
6) Likely in trouble with the law - so known.
7) Familiar with the area - so likely a local.
8) Violent rage and easy to trigger.


Just found a CRIMINAL PROFILE on Cesnik's likely killer done in 1994 and based on the assailant being random:


free screen capture


Interesting I reckon.


DND :)
 

DownUnderNZer

"ON LOOKING AT A FEW THINGS":

Not my chosen area when I studied Psychology, so have to put that out there.

Without crime scene photos, autopsies, and victim history etc etc etc trying to get a sense of the killer is difficult. Nothing is 100% either, but it can be on to it as one case I read about "Geographical Profiling" brought 2000 suspects down to 2 and then from there to just the one that was needed. The rapist/killer. "Duffy" I think was the name of the man, but do not quote me on that.


"WHAT I DO KNOW NOW":


CESNIK & MALECKI: Both allegedly disappeared from shopping places at night time, their cars were used then parked elsewhere, both were in their 20s, and both were Caucasian.

CESNIK: Was found beaten, choked, and bashed in the head laying sprawled out and face up. (May have been moved). Hands bound. Possibly sexually assaulted although this has never been confirmed. Skirt pulled up to her neck to expose her nakedness. She was out on a routine fortnightly trip to the bank and to buy an engagement gift for her sister. She also bought some dinner rolls. Found not far from her apartment in a dumping area: Lansdowne.

Not sure what was taken except maybe an "engagement gift" and her "crucifix". As for missing clothing nothing has been mentioned. No evidence except one cigarette butt and the mud and twig in her car. No fingerprints.

MALECKI: Was found in Forts Mead face down in a water area with hands tied and had been choked and stabbed in the throat. Some believe she was fully clothed although I have not read this anywhere. She was sexually assaulted. She was out shopping and meeting her boyfriend from the military.

Not sure if anything went missing in her case, but some killers like to take trophies and souvenirs and especially serial killers. Only one fingerprint was found in her car - no other evidence unless this has not been disclosed.


IS THE KILLER ONE AND THE SAME?


Both went missing at night time, so the killer either worked during the day or was unemployed.

MO's are different yet because of how they died it does tend to make me think someone between his/her late teens to mid-late 20s. With Malecki though I really wonder if her killer had killed before because of certain details. (Limited details though so other factors could change it).

MOTIVE: For me the motive seems sexual for both.


"My Thoughts: Cesnik's Killer".

1) I put him in his 20's.
2) Day job if killing at night or even unemployed.
3) Hatred of women and likely from a dysfunctional family.
4) Mother/Father issues. May have had no father in the scene actually.
5) Issues with authority figures which would also mean the law.
6) Likely in trouble with the law - so known.
7) Familiar with the area - so likely a local.
8) Violent rage and easy to trigger.


No real change with the above really although I did do a crash course last night on 'Forensic Psychology". Maybe with just the age for Cesnik's killer I would put it at being late teens to mid-late 20s. However, I still feel "20s".


Lily/Letter/Cross/MAN/Clover/Moon/Snake

So, possibly 1) older than Cesnik or one with more life experience, 2) lived at a distance or came from a different place before living in Baltimore, 3) maybe someone that had a knack for writing, religious or the world on his shoulders type, 4) an opportunist or gambler, known or recognized, creative, emotional and 5) someone not really trustworthy or honest only this would not have been hidden. 6) A trouble maker.

As for features: Possibly slender build, agile, metro or feminine looks and hair on the long side. Fair to medium skin tone.

Cesnik was 26 years old.

1) Maybe not older unless immature, but as for life experience this could be true as she lead a very sheltered life until living in her apartment so was relatively unworldly.

2) Forensic Psychology: The killer could be what is classed as a "Commuter killer" which means the killer travels to kill, but has a good knowledge of the area. May live in near by suburbs/towns and/or work close by or frequents the killing zone for whatever reasons other than victims.

3), 4) and 5) Cannot be confirmed as no one has been arrested etc.

6) Likely a trouble maker.

Features: Cannot be confirmed although I would think Caucasian and a few suspects in THE KEEPERS would fit this ONLY I need concrete proof and hard facts before saying GUILTY!

In addition, as there is little evidence in Malecki's murder, someone that may have read up on how the police worked on crime so through resources like "True Detective" magazines or whatever was around in the late 60s and early 70s. This killer to me comes across as more of an "organized killer".

As for Cesnik, with a messed up car and a cigarette butt left at the scene plus the killer not caring how the body was left makes me think a "disorganized killer". And to park the car outside her apartment either makes him extremely clever or someone that had limited experience in how to conduct a murder and dispose of vital evidence etc.


Based on what I have read up on or seen in chat and so forth I feel the murders of Cesnik and Malecki are not connected. However, if it is true that Cesnik was moved to where she was found and positioned that way then.....


Right now.....I feel they are two separate murders.


DND :)





Fish/Woman/RIDER/Mountain/Cross

"Fish" to me can mean "independent" because it can be about someone that is a "free spirit" and her/his "own person" plus when it comes to business an "Entrapeneur" or "Free lancer".

So, it makes me wonder if these murders were independent of one another and done by different "women killers". Not female killers, but men that kill women. So as not to be unfair - it could be a female killer only as Cisnek was raped (maybe Malecki) I have to go with male(s). These murders could have both been a "business arrangement" as well, so in that way both could be connected, but it doesn't necessarily mean by the same killer.

There are certain details, facts, info, updates that are being held back that would likely clear this up one way or the other. As these cases are still "open" it makes sense that this is the situation. However, it is not giving away anything to say that they are "connected" or "not".

Lastly, the connection might not be through "religion" or the "church" as some believe, especially with "Mountain + Cross" together - therefore it might not be a "business arrangement" at all, but just two murders done independently of each other.


Food for thought......




DND :)
 

DownUnderNZer

I found this article interesting, however, this may not be related to Cesnik at all. Having said that, it cannot be dismissed as it could be related to some of the other cases later on that ended in murder. Also, it is a good indication of what was really going on at the time, and that Cesnik and Malecki were not the only women that made the news. There are a number of other murdered females (and male) plus these apparent "abduction attempts" in 1969 and 1970.

He is mentioned as to look around the age of "30", so there is a possibility he could have been in his late 20s and if these abduction attempts were going on longer than 1970 then it would possibly put him in his 20s.


DESCRIPTION:

Medium length brown hair.
Around 30.
5 10
Caucasian (White).



DND :)





7 cards and random selection face down in a fan.

Focus Card: "Man".

Lily/Letter/Cross/MAN/Clover/Moon/Snake

So, possibly older than Cesnik or one with more life experience, lived at a distance or came from a different place before living in Baltimore, maybe someone that had a knack for writing, religious or the world on his shoulders type, an opportunist or gambler, known or recognized, creative, emotional and someone not really trustworthy or honest only this would not have been hidden. A trouble maker.

As for features: Possibly slender build, agile, metro or feminine looks and hair on the long side. Fair to medium skin tone.


NOTE: Need to look back at photos of Edgar and Bill as both were slender, not sure about agile, but both could fit in with metro or feminine looks. Not sure about long hair either. Edgar gambled. Not sure if Bill did.


NOTE II: However, it does not mean it was either of these two men, as they have never been tied to Cesnik or the crime really and back then plenty of young people likely had long hair as it would have been in the hippie days and before Flower Power of whatever it was called.



DND :)