Dante and The Tarot

[Fulgour]

Many scholars agree that Dante references every single trump title
and image, and will say that he does so in ways that seem straight
out of the cards. Some researchers helpfully inform young students
that Dante wrote before the Tarot came historically into existence.

Yet we can all agree that Dante's fine works were among the most
popular in the countries from which the Tarot historically emerged.

*

Considering the above introduction,
I am here posting for discussion my
views...

1. Facts about the dates of Dante's life:
Durante Degli Alighieri, now better known as Dante Alighieri,
or simply Dante, (c. June 1, 1265 – September 13/14, 1321).

2. My personal belief regarding Tarot:
"The Gypsies" introduced the Tarot 200 years before Dante,
and her roots (prior to European packs) go back thousands.

 

[Fulgour]

Horse & Rider

This thread should not be misconstrued as an "argument"
against the prevailing theory that Tarot developed in the
15th century as an Italian playing card game. Let it be...

But if one doesn't care about Popes and Kings, if the goal
is to see deeper into what's evident in the cards we know,
rather than 'sifting' through sermons and tax documents...
there's a clearly transcendent energy at work in the Tarot.

It's a simple as, horses may be known to have existed long
before human beings began publishing books about them~
or preaching whether they were good or bad...or taxable.

 

[Teheuti]

Some researchers helpfully inform young students
that Dante wrote before the Tarot came historically into existence.

Given this, couldn't it be that Dante's works influenced the tarot rather than the other way around?

Mary

 

[Teheuti]

2. My personal belief regarding Tarot:
"The Gypsies" introduced the Tarot 200 years before Dante

When did the gypsies first arrive in Europe? Or, are you suggesting that the tarot originated in India?

Mary

 

[Teheuti]

Is your premise the same as that expressed by Christine Payne-Towler in her book _The Underground Stream_? If not, how does it vary?

Mary

 

[Papageno]

When did the gypsies first arrive in Europe? Or, are you suggesting that the tarot originated in India?

Mary

isn't the precise origin of Gypsies rather obscure? what I'm asking then is, did they "arrive" at all from other parts of the globe or were they in fact indigenous ? I know there's a popular theory that their origins are India and Egypt but is there conclusive evidence to support this? has DNA testing been done to establish a link just as African Americans can now use these methods to trace their ancestry back to specific regions and tribes in Africa.
this is not a challenge. I'm genuinely confused

 

[kwaw]

isn't the precise origin of Gypsies rather obscure? what I'm asking then is, did they "arrive" at all from other parts of the globe or were they in fact indigenous ? I know there's a popular theory that their origins are India and Egypt but is there conclusive evidence to support this? has DNA testing been done to establish a link just as African Americans can now use these methods to trace their ancestry back to specific regions and tribes in Africa.
this is not a challenge. I'm genuinely confused

As far as I am aware an Indian origin is based upon linguistic studies, and is generally well accepted.

Kwaw

 

[kwaw]

As far as I am aware an Indian origin is based upon linguistic studies, and is generally well accepted.

Kwaw

According to wikipedia there is both linguistic [affinity with punjabi] and genetic evidence indicating the Roma originated on the Indian Subcontinent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma_people

there is loads of stuff on web - google search on 'gypsy dna'

Kwaw

 

[baba-prague]

has DNA testing been done to establish a link just as African Americans can now use these methods to trace their ancestry back to specific regions and tribes in Africa.
this is not a challenge. I'm genuinely confused

Yes, interestingly a lot of DNA testing has been done, and it indicates Indian origins - although if I understand correctly there is still dispute about the area of India. This is a good site to start from:
http://www.romani.org/

I also spent an afternoon with the Professor of Roma Studies here a while back, and she is convinced that the linguistic case is very strong. She said some sentences in Rom and in some Indian dialects for us (she speaks seven languages including Hindi and Urdu) and I found that absolutely convincing - the words and structure were very very close. In fact, hearing her speak both was a fascinating experience.

As I've pointed out many times here, if the Roma brought tarot with them to Europe you would expect to see it follow in their immigration track from the East - it doesn't.

"it is likely that they followed the Silk Road west to the southern shores of the Caspian Sea, up along the west coast to the foothills of the Caucasus range, through Armenia and into the Byzantime Empire. This proposed route of migration is based on the numbers and types of words in Romani - Persion, Armenian, and Greek."
http://www.romani.org/local/romhist.html

You CAN see distinct traces of Roma approaches in some Russian magic (this is something that I need to research far more - Alex and I have some vague theories on this which we'd love to work on at some point - again, they are based on the linguistics of Roma and of Russian verbal magic) but one thing you do NOT see in Russian magic is the early use of cards - the first recorded instance of divination by cards in Russia is 1764. I can't speak for Armenian or Greek magic, but would be very interested to hear if early use of cards for divination (as this whole "Rom origins" thing seems inextricably tied up with the assumption that the cards were being used for divination or fortune-telling) is present in those cultures. If so, it's not something I've heard of.

So if the Roma brought tarot, why did they leave no trace of it until they arrived in Italy? I'd love to hear some coherent answer to that basic question.

 

[Teheuti]

The Rom

It's interesting that the Rom seemed to reach central Europe later than playing cards but just around the same time as the first Italian Tarots. Not that I'm suggesting anything by this.

From Wikipedia:

"According to historian Norman Davies, a 1378 law passed by the governor of Nauplion in the Greek Peloponnese confirming privileges for the "atstingani" is "the first documented record of Romany gypsies in Europe." Similar documents, again representing the Roma as a group that had been exiled from Egypt, record them reaching Braşov, Transylvania in 1416; Hamburg, Holy Roman Empire in 1418; and Paris in 1427. A chronicler for a Parisian journal described them as dressed in a manner that the Parisians considered shabby, and reports that the Church had them leave town because they practiced palm-reading and fortune-telling.[4]

By the 16th century, Roma had reached Scotland and Sweden (although DNA evidence from mid 11th century skeletons in Norwich suggest that at least a few individuals may have arrived earlier, perhaps due to Viking enslavement of Romani from the eastern Mediterranean or liaisons with the Varangians[5]). Some Roma migrated from Persia through North Africa, reaching Europe via Spain in the 15th century. Both currents met in France."