Difference between 13 & 20


How would you define the difference between Death 13 & Judgement 20 ? (or in the Old Path Tarot I usually use 'The Close' & 'Karma'). Also, how would Justice differ from these two ?


And if the Tarot did come from Italy, how do you explain cards such as Judgment and the Devil?

JMD: i am not disputing that through applying Egyptian Goddesses etc to certain cards we can deepen our understanding. I have constantly found doin this benficial. But, to take it one step further, and to say that the Tarot comes from Egypt, (With its Devil card and Judgement day card!) without any actual archaeological evidence to back it up, and seemingly based on pure speculation, isn't the way I'm going.

And about Kabbalah, Tarot, and Synchronicity It is harly surprising to me tht the Italian nobility who were into the occut were also heavily into the Kabbalah.

And to say (As mentioned by DeLani ina previous post) that the church in Italy had a stranglhold is inaccurate. At the time Ialy had what was called Papal States, ruled by a Duke (One by the Duke of Milan- The guy who wrot the Visconti Sforza letters!). The Papal States, whilst saying the were doing wha the Pope was telling them, were actually struggling for power over Italy, nt ony against each other, but also against the Church. At one point, there were 3 Popes, all fighting with each other over the position! How can the church a that ime then, be said to have had a stranglhold, if that was what as going on?!

Anyway, my brain has run dry (For now!) But before I end this post, some sincere thanks are in order:

To AmounrA: For being the catalyst into my deeper study of the origin of the Tarot, of Hermetica, and Crowley. And also for giving me a good run for my money wth her rater nift arguing skills!

To DeLani For doing the same as AmounrA, only in a nicer tone of writing!

To JMD: For the perspective from both sides.

Thankyou! And keep this going, I'm learning alot!




I use the Crowley deck, where Judgement is called Aeon, what is much more how I see this card; it is the step forward(!) into another world, the subsequent one to the one before. It is completion, conclusion, one circle done, going into the next one on a higher level on the spiral of life.
Death is not at all this, but it is a cut somewhere to stop something like a wrong path. Even physical death is not something like lottery; the way and also the time we are touched by death is no coincidence and we ourselves are building our own death all our lives. There is brutality in 13, not in 20. Death is a hit in our face to make us stop or turn, 20 is the gift of ressurection into what we built to be our world and next reality; it is our own way. Death takes us out of another way we went down and puts us back on our own, mostly a good way back of what we thought we should be.
As to Judgement, what Crowley calles Balance (I think, I have the german cards), I use this card as an indicator of carmic and fate forces. In some way similar as you use the Judgement, but without moral issues involved. This card is a final sum of a bill we were writing without knowing it, presented from time to time, making us humble and concient again.