Fire vs. Air...

[MacMorrighan]

Hey guys, some other documentation I'm looking for is surrounding the placements of the suit of wands and he Suit of Swords in the Element of Fire and Air, respectively. Now, I have always heard hat Wands really SHOULD be in Air, and Swords SHOULD be in Fire! But...to preserve his oathes in the Golden Dawn Waite (was it?) switched the two around. Does anyone know any really "classic" literature that backs up with relative hear-say?

 

[tmgrl2]

Welcome, Mac....I know you asked about specific historical references....but you might enjoy reading these discussions on the topic....did a search...

There were 280 threads that came up discussing elemental correspondences.....these are just a few...

terri



http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=16186&highlight=fire+air+suits

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=53889&highlight=fire+air+suits

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=53649&highlight=fire+air+suits

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=35466&highlight=fire+air+suits

 

[venicebard]

Hey guys, some other documentation I'm looking for is surrounding the placements of the suit of wands and he Suit of Swords in the Element of Fire and Air, respectively. Now, I have always heard hat Wands really SHOULD be in Air, and Swords SHOULD be in Fire! But...to preserve his oathes in the Golden Dawn Waite (was it?) switched the two around. Does anyone know any really "classic" literature that backs up with relative hear-say?

I know it's documentation you requested, not reason, but your interest appears to be what the original allocation of elements was. I would not give much credence to talk of oathes in the context of the GD, Waite, et al, as they certainly were not privy to the secret of tarot's origin in its entirety, although I do give Hermetic Kabbalah in general credit for preserving correct traditions concerning the Name, as well as the paths on the Tree as they relate to the letters, though their speculations regarding the trumps are all over the map.

Logic is all that is needed to know the original allocation. Clubs or staves are the only burnable suit, hence fire or unity, this also because they are the spokes of the original wheel, which unites the Sefirot (the first ten of the twelve spokes). Swords split the air and thus correspond to the second element, air, nature's order being fire-air-water-earth. Air, the lepton (e.g. electron) is dual because it has fire, the photon (mass-energy), in it.

(The order fire-water-air-earth is related to the Name, the tension between this and natural order being its power.)

 

[DoctorArcanus]

Good question
I am not sure this helps:

Ross pointed out in another thread that in 1551 Innocentio Ringhieri established a connection between the four suits and the four cardinal virtues (see attachment).

Cups Temperance (who holds a cup)
Wands Strength (in the Visconti-Sforza holds a wooden club)
Swords Justice (holds a sword)
Coins Prudence (card coins look like mirrors)

In the XI Century, Rodulfus Glaber aka Raoul Le Chauve, apparently establish links between the four virtues and the four elements (my source is this French page):

Water Temperance
Air Strength
Earth Justice
Fire Prudence

It could be that Prudence is connected to Fire because the snake (or dragon) is a symbol of both. I would like to know more of what Raoul actually wrote....

Marco

 

[Ross G Caldwell]

Hi Marco,

Thanks for the Glaber note.

If you go to gallica.bnf.fr you can find Raoul Glaber's "histories" where he makes these connections (pp. 2-4).

I personally think that monks such as John of Rheinfelden, who wrote about cards in 1377, would easily have made the connection of suits with four elements. But which? Hard to say - the Virtues are a good link, though.

Brother John did make the connection with four kingdoms of the world of his time ("status mundi nunc modernis" IIRC) so we know with certainty that the fourfold schematic was noted by some.

Ross

 

[DoctorArcanus]

If you go to gallica.bnf.fr you can find Raoul Glaber's "histories" where he makes these connections (pp. 2-4).

A rough translation from Latin:

So what is ether, the element of fire in the material world, the same is prudence in the intellectual world; because both desire to rise and want to be close to God.
And that which is air in the world of bodies, the same is strength in the intellectual, which makes possible the life of all beings and each of their actions.
In a similar way what is water in the world of bodies is temperance in the intellectual world; it is nourishment to the good, brings many virtues, and preserves faith for the desire of the love of God.
As earth bears everything in the lower world, in the same way the unmovable position of the right distribution of justice bears everything in the intellectual world.
​

Marco

 

[venicebard]

Ross pointed out in another thread that in 1551 Innocentio Ringhieri established a connection between the four suits and the four cardinal virtues (see attachment).

Cups Temperance (who holds a cup)
Wands Strength (in the Visconti-Sforza holds a wooden club)
Swords Justice (holds a sword)
Coins Prudence (card coins look like mirrors)

I don’t quite buy this lineup, on the grounds that the Visconti-Sforza ‘Fortitude’ is a disgrace (why slay the lion when you can control its roar?). Indeed the crude brutality of the club or staff is not true Force or Fortitude, as this involves the refinement of the Sword: the Marseilles portrays the amplification of force inherent in, for example, pinching the end of a hose to increase pressure. This lineup also makes Prudence purely mercenary and allows that might makes right, apparently, instead of assigning Money to Justice, to those who earn it, and Prudence to the wand or staff that directs or accompanies one's steps.

In the XI Century, Rodulfus Glaber aka Raoul Le Chauve, apparently establish links between the four virtues and the four elements (my source is this French page):

Water Temperance
Air Strength
Earth Justice
Fire Prudence

This one rings true to me. And it apparently equates Prudence with knowledge (Light), which means its trump would be VI L’Amoureux, and this (for me) reinforces Robert Lependu’s contention the original trumps lacked labels. (‘To know’ is to love.)

It could be that Prudence is connected to Fire because the snake (or dragon) is a symbol of both.

I am very interested in your source(s) for this, to fill an ignorant void in me. [Phoenician teyt, a crossed circle, is the alchemical symbol for earth and represents the equator or worm uroboros, being bardic palm, named after the reborn-in-fire phoenix (as were the Phoenicians): teyt resides at libra, before the alef-bet ‘juggling act’ moved it to leo (the hottest month), and its square-Hebrew form shows both the uroboros and (along with mem) the legs folded beneath one while meditating.]

I personally think that monks such as John of Rheinfelden, who wrote about cards in 1377, would easily have made the connection of suits with four elements. But which? Hard to say - the Virtues are a good link, though.

Well, it’s not hard to see that Cups hold water and Coins buy earthly pleasures, and it’s not hard to hear that Swords split the air, which even stands for contentiousness (argument), leaving Clubs or Batons for the fireplace. What’s the mystery?

 

[kwaw]

I don’t quite buy this lineup, on the grounds that the Visconti-Sforza ‘Fortitude’ is a disgrace (why slay the lion when you can control its roar?).

Is he slaying the Lion? Or are he and the Lion facing a common enemy? They don't look particularly interested in each other... the lion not particularly concerned he is about to get his head bashed in, its interest directed to something or somebody off stage.

Kwaw

 

[DoctorArcanus]

It could be that Prudence is connected to Fire because the snake (or dragon) is a symbol of both.
​

I am very interested in your source(s) for this, to fill an ignorant void in me.

A few hours ago I posted a Robert Fludd image with a dragon under the title "De creaturis coeli aetherei" i.e. "About the creatures of the celestial sphere of fire".
The salamander also is a reptile symbol of fire (because of its mythical resistence to it).

A snake is present in the Prudence from Cesare Ripa Iconologia. Actually this "snake" could be a remora fish, as in Alciato Prudence

Snakes are also mentioned as symbols of Prudence in this page about the caduceus

I hope to find more references about this topic (which is of great interest to me).

Marco

 

[firecatpickles]

Snakes are also mentioned as symbols of Prudence

And the Minchiate Prudence holds a snake, don't forget...

KK