Kind of weird question...

Cassandra022

So uh, this feels a bit awkward to ask about, but its been on my mind for a bit...

i don't venture into this here part of the forum much, but i do read over the dedications and prayers subforum from time to time. i think it's a really nice idea, and a lot of the time, when i'm reading the threads, i kind of too want to chime in and say something...

however, in regards to spirituality...well i read tarot, and i'm interested in astrology, but besides that i'm pretty much totally...don't believe in anything, personally. no spirits or guides or deities or anything. not that i make any judgements or anything like that about what anyone else does, just for me personally.

by the same token...i just can't make myself believe, at all, that things like healing energy, prayer, etc work or make any more of a difference than saying 'sorry you're going through that man, sympathies' except that they sound more postive/proactive i guess... not looking to start any arguments or debates, don't claim i'm universally correct or anything like that just...my brain is not capable of faith in any such things, really.
but i really do think it's a nice idea, to express good wishes and that kind of sentiment to people, especially people you know and like, going through a difficult time, etc.
But given well, my lack of belief...it feels hypocritical and even dishonest for me to say anything in that forum, so i don't...

dunno, i guess, what i'm asking here exactly...insights/thoughts/comments?
 

Asbestos Mango

I'm actually going through something kind of similar. After twelve years as a devout Catholic, I started having some doubts about church teachings, and, er, started playing with Tarot cards again. I moved on to the Episcopalian church, then started reading books by Bart Ehrman, arrived at the conclusion that the Bible is not the Word of God, and my belief in Christianity crumbled. Then lately I've started listening to atheist podcasts...

I guess at this point you could call me an agnostic pantheist. I do believe in spiritual entities, and occasionally pray to the Archangel Michael, but when it comes down to it, you really can't prove there's a God, or gods, or any other type of supernatural entities.

As far as prayers, healing energy, etc, there's no real proof of any of that either. Some folks believe, some don't , and I'm on the fence.

If you find a request for prayers or generally good vibes to be sent in someone's direction because they're having a tough time, I think it's perfectly appropriate to type good thoughts and whatever advice you think might be helpful. In the end, it's making a connection to another human being and doing what you can to help, even if it's just a cyber-hug.
 

GryffinSong

I'm in a similar boat. I've never believed in gods, or ghosts, or anything supernatural. I love tarot, but I come to it from a psychological path. And although I have animal guides, I also come to them through a psychological path, and am quite content to continue to see them that way. Basically, I find the experiences to be growthful and beautiful, but don't seen any need to explain or label them as supernatural events.

I consider myself an open-minded skeptic. I'm willing to listen, but my filters are pretty strong when it comes to blind belief.

When I enter a prayer thread, I simply word my concern in some secular way. "I'm so sorry for your loss", "Best wishes for a full recovery", and words to that effect. I don't believe in the power of prayer beyond what might occur due to the power of positive thinking. When I hear someone say that they'll pray for me, my inner universal translator translates it into something like "I care about you, and am hoping for the best." I can't speak for those who believe in prayer, but I would like to think that we're welcome there as long as our posts are in the positive spirit in which that forum is intended.
 

Libra8ca

Well I do believe in spirits and angels and that they can probably hear some of our prayers. My problem is that if I pray and nothing happens and that's most of the time unfortunately, then I don't feel motivated to continue praying. I'm a very practical no-nonsense person and if there is no effect I just stop.
However, there have been studies showing that patients who were prayed for by others did better. I also read somewhere that if a person is very ill and dying and the relatives pray for this person to remain alive and get better that it makes it more difficult for the person to pass over. I read this in some book about near death experiences and it somehow makes sense, so I tend to believe there is something to prayer, I just wish they were answered more promptly LOL! I have started asking aloud for guidance in my life; I still need to determine if that works!
 

Bhavana

I do believe that there is something beyond this life - but as for a God the way I was taught, I have my doubts as well. Sometimes I think religion, and the ideas of heaven or hell or sin are really just man made inventions to either keep us all in line, or make us feel better about our short and sometimes miserable lives. Life could seem awful bleak if all it was is what we have here - being born, glorious young years - only to wither and grow old and sickly and die and have that be THE FINAL END. Religion serves to keep us moral, and to make life more worthwhile, gives us something to look forward to after we are done this life. Maybe if we didn't have that, we'd be doing all kinds of horrible things to each other (I mean even more than we already do!)

And I do believe in prayer - as a form of positive energy - which I won't go into in detail about right now - but I have seen it work.

Faith is still believing, in spite of all the odds. I waver between being jealous of those who have faith, and feeling they are nuts. The truth is, none of us knows for sure what is on the other side....I just think that there is enough proof that there really IS another side, and that's enough for me. I'm not taking any chances. While I don't follow the rules of the church to a "T", I do follow the teachings of Jesus and Buddha. As for the rest of it, I guess I'll find out when I die!
 

GryffinSong

...Religion serves to keep us moral.... Maybe if we didn't have that, we'd be doing all kinds of horrible things to each other (I mean even more than we already do!)...

I'm actually on several forums that discuss this kind of thing quite frequently, and the numbers don't seem to support this assumption. In general, the more secular a society it is, the less crime and violence it seems to have.
 

Richard

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." - Albert Einstein
 

The crowned one

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." - Albert Einstein



So far out of context as to be useless my friend.


"Everything that the human race has done and thought is concerned with the satisfaction of felt needs and the assuagement of pain. One has to keep this constantly in mind if one wishes to understand spiritual movements and their development. Feeling and desire are the motive forces behind all human endeavour and human creation, in however exalted a guise the latter may present itself to us. Now what are the feelings and needs that have led men to religious thought and belief in the widest sense of the words? A little consideration will suffice to show us that the most varying emotions preside over the birth of religious thought and experience. With primitive man it is above all fear that evokes religious notions—fear of hunger, wild beasts, sickness, death. Since at this stage of existence understanding of causal connexions is usually poorly developed, the human mind creates for itself more or less analogous beings on whose wills and actions these fearful happenings depend. One's object now is to secure the favour of these beings by carrying out actions and offering sacrifices which, according to the tradition handed down from generation to generation, propitiate them or make them well disposed towards a mortal.

I am speaking now of the religion of fear. This, though not created, is in an important degree stabilized by the formation of a special priestly caste which sets up as a mediator between the people and the beings they fear, and erects a hegemony on this basis. In many cases the leader or ruler whose position depends on other factors, or a privileged class, combines priestly functions with its secular authority in order to make the latter more secure; or the political rulers and the priestly caste make common cause in their own interests.

The social feelings are another source of the crystallization of religion. Fathers and mothers and the leaders of larger human communities are mortal and fallible. The desire for guidance, love, and support prompts men to form the social or moral conception of God. This is the God of Providence who protects, disposes, rewards, and punishes, the God who, according to the width of the believer's outlook, loves and cherishes the life of the tribe or of the human race, or even life as such, the comforter in sorrow and unsatisfied longing, who preserves the souls of the dead. This is the social or moral conception of God.

The Jewish scriptures admirably illustrate the development from the religion of fear to moral religion, which is continued in the New Testament. The religions of all civilized peoples, especially the peoples of the Orient, are primarily moral religions. The development from a religion of fear to moral religion is a great step in a nation's life. That primitive religions are based entirely on fear and the religions of civilized peoples purely on morality is a prejudice against which we must be on our guard. The truth is that they are all intermediate types, with this reservation, that on the higher levels of social life the religion of morality predominates.

Common to all these types is the anthropomorphic character of their conception of God. Only individuals of exceptional endowments and exceptionally high-minded communities, as a general rule, get in any real sense beyond this level. But there is a third state of religious experience which belongs to all of them, even though it is rarely found in a pure form, and which I will call cosmic religious feeling. It is very difficult to explain this feeling to anyone who is entirely without it, especially as there is no anthropomorphic conception of God corresponding to it.

The individual feels the nothingness of human desires and aims and the sublimity and marvellous order which reveal themselves both in nature and in the world of thought. He looks upon individual existence as a sort of prison and wants to experience the universe as a single significant whole. The beginnings of cosmic religious feeling already appear in earlier stages of development—e.g., in many of the Psalms of David and in some of the Prophets. Buddhism, as we have learnt from the wonderful writings of Schopenhauer especially, contains a much stronger element of it.

The religious geniuses of all ages have been distinguished by this kind of religious feeling, which knows no dogma and no God conceived in man's image; so that there can be no Church whose central teachings are based on it. Hence it is precisely among the heretics of every age that we find men who were filled with the highest kind of religious feeling and were in many cases regarded by their contemporaries as Atheists, sometimes also as saints. Looked at in this light, men like Democritus, Francis of Assisi, and Spinoza are closely akin to one another.

How can cosmic religious feeling be communicated from one person to another, if it can give rise to no definite notion of a God and no theology? In my view, it is the most important function of art and science to awaken this feeling and keep it alive in those who are capable of it. We thus arrive at a conception of the relation of science to religion very different from the usual one. When one views the matter historically one is inclined to look upon science and religion as irreconcilable antagonists, and for a very obvious reason. The man who is thoroughly convinced of the universal operation of the law of causation cannot for a moment entertain the idea of a being who interferes in the course of events—that is, if he takes the hypothesis of causality really seriously. He has no use for the religion of fear and equally little for social or moral religion. A God who rewards and punishes is inconceivable to him for the simple reason that a man's actions are determined by necessity, external and internal, so that in God's eyes he cannot be responsible, any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motions it goes through. Hence science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behaviour should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear and punishment and hope of reward after death.

It is therefore easy to see why the Churches have always fought science and persecuted its devotees. On the other hand, I maintain that cosmic religious feeling is the strongest and noblest incitement to scientific research. Only those who realize the immense efforts and, above all, the devotion which pioneer work in theoretical science demands, can grasp the strength of the emotion out of which alone such work, remote as it is from the immediate realities of life, can issue. What a deep conviction of the rationality of the universe and what a yearning to understand, were it but a feeble reflection of the mind revealed in this world, Kepler and Newton must have had to enable them to spend years of solitary labour in disentangling the principles of celestial mechanics!

Those whose acquaintance with scientific research is derived chiefly from its practical results easily develop a completely false notion of the mentality of the men who, surrounded by a sceptical world, have shown the way to those like-minded with themselves, scattered through the earth and the centuries. Only one who has devoted his life to similar ends can have a vivid realization of what has inspired these men and given them the strength to remain true to their purpose in spite of countless failures. It is cosmic religious feeling that gives a man strength of this sort. A contemporary has said, not unjustly, that in this materialistic age of ours the serious scientific workers are the only profoundly religious people.

You will hardly and one among the profounder sort of scientific minds without a peculiar religious feeling of his own. But it is different from the religion of the naive man. For the latter God is a being from whose care one hopes to benefit and whose punishment one fears; a sublimation of a feeling similar to that of a child for its father, a being to whom one stands to some extent in a personal relation, however deeply it may be tinged with awe.

But the scientist is possessed by the sense of universal causation. The future, to him, is every whit as necessary and determined as the past. There is nothing divine about morality, it is a purely human affair. His religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection. This feeling is the guiding principle of his life and work, in so far as he succeeds in keeping himself from the shackles of selfish desire. It is beyond question closely akin to that which has possessed the religious geniuses of all ages.

A bit of a difference when taken in context. I am not a fan of "quotes" as they are too easy to fit a need.
 

Richard

So far out of context as to be useless my friend.A bit of a difference when taken in context....................... I am not a fan of "quotes" as they are too easy to fit a need.
That is certainly true. Quotes are shortcuts which can very easily be unhelpful and even misleading when the context is not provided. But...but...look how many words it took to put it properly into context. :bugeyed: Still, very thoughtful essay! Thanks for the explication.

Einstein was indeed very religious, but as you indicated, it had nothing to do with reward and punishment. If I may be permitted another quote of Einstein, which I think is intrinsically self-explanatory. "A human being is a part of a whole, called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest... a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty." Further... "The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."
 

Cassandra022

I'm actually going through something kind of similar. After twelve years as a devout Catholic, I started having some doubts about church teachings, and, er, started playing with Tarot cards again. I moved on to the Episcopalian church, then started reading books by Bart Ehrman, arrived at the conclusion that the Bible is not the Word of God, and my belief in Christianity crumbled. Then lately I've started listening to atheist podcasts...

this sounds a lot like me at age like 12-14 i must say, though without the exploring of other branches of christianity (which you know, function of limited agency you have with such things at that age...)



If you find a request for prayers or generally good vibes to be sent in someone's direction because they're having a tough time, I think it's perfectly appropriate to type good thoughts and whatever advice you think might be helpful. In the end, it's making a connection to another human being and doing what you can to help, even if it's just a cyber-hug.

When I enter a prayer thread, I simply word my concern in some secular way. "I'm so sorry for your loss", "Best wishes for a full recovery", and words to that effect. I don't believe in the power of prayer beyond what might occur due to the power of positive thinking. When I hear someone say that they'll pray for me, my inner universal translator translates it into something like "I care about you, and am hoping for the best." I can't speak for those who believe in prayer, but I would like to think that we're welcome there as long as our posts are in the positive spirit in which that forum is intended.

This is really helpful advice/good to hear regarding then D&P forum specifically. Thanks!