northsea
I've been wondering recently if the Maltese cross on the Tarot de Marseille Pope's glove provides any indication of the tarot's origins, such as possibly the Knights Templar. Any ideas or information?
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Maltese cross on Tarot de Marseille Pope's glove
jmd
Personally, I would like to read a really detailed study on possible links or symbolic correlations between the Knight Templars and Tarot imagery - but do not think that, in this case, the connection is as such.
For cross-reference, there is an earlier thread called Gloves on V the Pope/Hierophant, in which some information is also posted.
It may be worth noting that the cross that we now commonly refer to as the Maltese Cross was not solely associated with Malta.
Principally, the crosses on the gloves of the pontiff indicate stigmata.
For cross-reference, there is an earlier thread called Gloves on V the Pope/Hierophant, in which some information is also posted.
It may be worth noting that the cross that we now commonly refer to as the Maltese Cross was not solely associated with Malta.
Principally, the crosses on the gloves of the pontiff indicate stigmata.
northsea
Thanks for your reply, jmd. I have also enjoyed reading your articles on the ATS website. ( I haven't read Tarot Symbolism yet as I'm presently finishing a couple of other books.)
Fulgour
Gauntlets
We have a new knitting book with an illustration
of eerily alike 17th century Liturgical gauntlets...
the cross is what is called "Potent" while the style
seen on Le Pape is termed "Formée" (not Maltese)
according to my Webster's dictionary. Well, well.
Click on to view: Formée Cross
Click on to view: Papal Gauntlets (and Slippers)
"Known as gauntlets, the ornamented gloves were worn
during liturgical celebrations. The gloves and slippers
varied in colour according to the liturgical season."
~Marian T. Horvat
Click on to view articles and images:
Liturgical Symbols
Seasons of the Liturgical Year
We have a new knitting book with an illustration
of eerily alike 17th century Liturgical gauntlets...
the cross is what is called "Potent" while the style
seen on Le Pape is termed "Formée" (not Maltese)
according to my Webster's dictionary. Well, well.
Click on to view: Formée Cross
Click on to view: Papal Gauntlets (and Slippers)
"Known as gauntlets, the ornamented gloves were worn
during liturgical celebrations. The gloves and slippers
varied in colour according to the liturgical season."
~Marian T. Horvat
Click on to view articles and images:
Liturgical Symbols
Seasons of the Liturgical Year
Fulgour
"My what pretty gloves you have!"
History of the Maltese Cross
If the Patriarchal Cross was the first form of cross, then it soon gave way to an equally early form of cross used by the Order, that of the Cross Formée (a Greek Cross with fluted arms). This cross can be seen on the wall of the stairs leading to the chapel within the Krak des Chevaliers which was the Syrian Castle of the Hospitallers from 1144 to 1271.
http://www2.prestel.co.uk/church/oosj/cross.htm
My guess after reading this is what we're seeing
is the equivalent of a wolf in sheep's clothing...
I wonder what 'Little Red Riding Hood' would say!
History of the Maltese Cross
If the Patriarchal Cross was the first form of cross, then it soon gave way to an equally early form of cross used by the Order, that of the Cross Formée (a Greek Cross with fluted arms). This cross can be seen on the wall of the stairs leading to the chapel within the Krak des Chevaliers which was the Syrian Castle of the Hospitallers from 1144 to 1271.
http://www2.prestel.co.uk/church/oosj/cross.htm
My guess after reading this is what we're seeing
is the equivalent of a wolf in sheep's clothing...
I wonder what 'Little Red Riding Hood' would say!
Namadev
The Cross of Rhodes of the Papessa of the Fournier Museum
Hi
The cross on the gloves of the Pope is a wrong example of a possible Cross of Malte.
The right example would be the Cross hold by the Papessa of the Fournier Museum :
http://www.angelfire.com/space/tarot/papessa.html
S. Kaplan identifies this Cross as typical of the Order of Malte.
An error because at that time, this order didn't yet exist.
I prefer to think about the Knights of RHODES, linked to the Knights of the Hospital.
Alain
jmd said:Personally, I would like to read a really detailed study on possible links or symbolic correlations between the Knight Templars and Tarot imagery - but do not think that, in this case, the connection is as such.
For cross-reference, there is an earlier thread called Gloves on V the Pope/Hierophant, in which some information is also posted.
It may be worth noting that the cross that we now commonly refer to as the Maltese Cross was not solely associated with Malta.
Principally, the crosses on the gloves of the pontiff indicate stigmata.
Hi
The cross on the gloves of the Pope is a wrong example of a possible Cross of Malte.
The right example would be the Cross hold by the Papessa of the Fournier Museum :
http://www.angelfire.com/space/tarot/papessa.html
S. Kaplan identifies this Cross as typical of the Order of Malte.
An error because at that time, this order didn't yet exist.
I prefer to think about the Knights of RHODES, linked to the Knights of the Hospital.
Alain
jmd
One of the better descriptions of the Maltese Cross is online here.
In any case, part of what is fascinating about the gloves (irrespective as to whether the crosses are 'Maltese' or not) is that not all early decks seem to depict them.
The relationship between stigmata and the proximity to Christ as represented by the Pope is another question that may be raised.
In any case, part of what is fascinating about the gloves (irrespective as to whether the crosses are 'Maltese' or not) is that not all early decks seem to depict them.
The relationship between stigmata and the proximity to Christ as represented by the Pope is another question that may be raised.
Fulgour
I think it would help if you explained this. Thanks!jmd said:The relationship between stigmata and the proximity to Christ as represented by the Pope is another question that may be raised.
northsea
The Evolution of the Maltese Cross.
From the evidence of the Seals, the Cross Formée and Cross Pattée (a thicker form of Cross with definite fluted arms) with a variant form in the Pattée Formée (almost four triangles in square formation) were used in the 12th and 13th centuries. Some variations of the Cross Formée/Pattée had concave ends to the arms, moving the design toward the eight pointed cross. Local variations of the cross used by the Order such as the Cross Moline used on the Seal of the Priory of Manosque, France early 13th century provided an influence toward an eight pointed cross used in the following century. By the 14th century there is a regular portrayal of an eight pointed cross, such as the Cross Moline or Cross Ancrée, contributing to the evolutionary design.
The uncertain design of the Order's cross in the late 12th century and throughout the 13th century, will reflect the uncertain future the Order faced following the loss of Jerusalem in 1187. Convents were secured in Tyre; 1187, Acre; 1191, Cyprus; 1291. Following the conquest of Rhodes by the Order, the Order was to enjoy a 300 year period of settled existence. In this period a definite form of the eight pointed cross emerged. This was represented by a Cross Formée Branchée/ Fichée, (the Rhodian Cross). The arms of the Rhodian Cross had almost, but not quite, achieved the straight lined sharp arrowhead appearance, noted from the mid 16th century onwards.
-from "History of the Maltese Cross" website
Thanks for the link, jmd. The cross on the papal gloves on the Heron Conver looks like a Cross Formee, or Formee Pattee, in use by the 12th century, and later by the Knights of Rhodes, as Alain noted.
From the evidence of the Seals, the Cross Formée and Cross Pattée (a thicker form of Cross with definite fluted arms) with a variant form in the Pattée Formée (almost four triangles in square formation) were used in the 12th and 13th centuries. Some variations of the Cross Formée/Pattée had concave ends to the arms, moving the design toward the eight pointed cross. Local variations of the cross used by the Order such as the Cross Moline used on the Seal of the Priory of Manosque, France early 13th century provided an influence toward an eight pointed cross used in the following century. By the 14th century there is a regular portrayal of an eight pointed cross, such as the Cross Moline or Cross Ancrée, contributing to the evolutionary design.
The uncertain design of the Order's cross in the late 12th century and throughout the 13th century, will reflect the uncertain future the Order faced following the loss of Jerusalem in 1187. Convents were secured in Tyre; 1187, Acre; 1191, Cyprus; 1291. Following the conquest of Rhodes by the Order, the Order was to enjoy a 300 year period of settled existence. In this period a definite form of the eight pointed cross emerged. This was represented by a Cross Formée Branchée/ Fichée, (the Rhodian Cross). The arms of the Rhodian Cross had almost, but not quite, achieved the straight lined sharp arrowhead appearance, noted from the mid 16th century onwards.
-from "History of the Maltese Cross" website
Thanks for the link, jmd. The cross on the papal gloves on the Heron Conver looks like a Cross Formee, or Formee Pattee, in use by the 12th century, and later by the Knights of Rhodes, as Alain noted.
northsea
just had to ask, LOL
So is it possible the tarot was created in the 12th century by the Knights of Rhodes or a similar order? The iconography of some other cards such as Death and the Devil would suggest 14th-15th century, right?
So is it possible the tarot was created in the 12th century by the Knights of Rhodes or a similar order? The iconography of some other cards such as Death and the Devil would suggest 14th-15th century, right?