Paganistic beliefs are EVIL

[Ambience]

I've just been on the phone 4 hours with my friend talking about christianity and god and paganism and generally what i believe- that god is in all things and we are god - all of us etc. Talking tarot and i'm being told this is the dark path- tarot is pure evil. Trying to reason that it's not, but banging my head against a brick wall.

How can my christian friend accept me as not being evil and tarot being the work of the devil or should i just do away with the notion of helping him understand my logic.

Any ideas or arguments for why tarot isn't the most sinful thing on the planet- or is the advice- just stay clear of getting into debates with christian believers

Thanks,
Jane x

p.s my mum is christian and i believe in many christian values- but i don't believe in the fantasy that surrounds the bible- although i think it's core concepts are helpful for the most part and good.

 

[Chiriku]

You asked the right person--or perhaps, given my way of dealing with the many devout Christians in my life--perhaps not.

You see, I have learned the hard way to not engage with my loved ones (including and especially my parents) on the subject of tarot, or my non-conforming religious and philosophical beliefs. I tried to do it in the past with my mother, from whom I inherited my intellectual curiosity and interest in world religion. However, the prospect that I will burn for eternity in hellfire was (and remains) so distressing to her that I can't allow her to think that will happen to me.

Avoid, gloss over, brush under the carpet, make light of. That's my advice if you really care about the people in question and know that they care for you and will be devastated to learn of your involvement in something that breaks God's laws as they know them.

Now, if there is not mutual care and concern on both sides of the equation...that's different. Then, I do lay out a case for tarot fitting into even orthodox expressions of Christianity and other Abrahamic religions. The stakes are much lower in those cases because those people don't love me and thus won't worry their heads too much about my eternal soul. It gives me freedom to lay out all my analyses and arguments.

Interestingly, I've also had similar debates with my hardcore anti-religion, atheist associates. Again, they don't have an emotional investment in me nor I in them so I don't care if their opinion of my intellect or "scientific mind" drops as a result.

 

[Chiriku]

And, IME, the best argument to use with religious people with whom you debate--should you choose not to avoid and deflect--is to stress that you do not use tarot for divination (i.e. for trying to pull an Adam and Eve and gain knowledge that is allowed only G-d). Instead, I talk about tarot's many benefits for self-analysis, decision-making, storytelling, etc etc.

If you want an argument for why divination proper should be acceptable in orthodox Christianity, you will have to get into some Biblical exegesis and interpret the language of the original Hebrew (Old Testament) scriptures in a way that allows for divination. For instance, you would have to parse out the Hebrew words that are commonly translated as "witchcraft" and "divination" and argue why those words meant something different in ancient Judaic culture than what tarot divination is.

If you're up to the latter (I've done it with other taboo subjects in fundamentalist Christianity like homosexuality and inter-religious marriage--but then, I have also studied theology and the Bible), more power to you, and please report back on what scriptural arguments you chose.

ETA: And by the way...fundamentalist Christians who are well-versed (literally) in Biblical scripture are not going to make the argument that tarot and its practitioners are "evil." That is a folk belief that most people who are only nominally Christian hold to. The objection of people who make it their business to read and know exactly what's in the Bible--like my mother, bless--is, rather, that we are breaking the ancient Abrahamic law of trying to KNOW that which is not allotted to us to know. The fear is not that we're evil demon-summoners, but that we have divined. Look at the word "divined;" it refers to that which is reserved for the gods, or in this case, the one true G-d.

 

[gregory]

Your friend can accept you as the you he knows, just as you accept him - did you tell him he is WRONG ? In your place I simply wouldn't discuss it. I have to do this with one of my own children, who doesn't (as far as I know) think the cards are EVIL but who is scared shitless...

I only bother to discuss it at all with people who are adversely affecting other people I care about. And even then usually I can't be bothered. After all, I am equally refusing to buy into what THEY believe. We often forget that here, when we fulminate against those who think WE are wrong. They have as much right to their beliefs as we do.

It's the same with politics. I rarely bother to discuss them with people who are way on the other side of the spectrum. They aren't going to change their views on the basis of anything I say and nor am I.

 

[celticnoodle]

gregory posted it well, I think. Your friend should accept you for the person he knows you to be and you should be the same with him. You are both entitled to your beliefs and if he by chance pushes you to discuss it (because he wants to 'save' you), just tell him that you have your beliefs and he has his. Give each other the respect you each deserve and don't talk about it if it is going to continue to upset either or both of you.

just as gregory posted, he has as much right to his beliefs as you do to yours and this is extended to everyone.

 

[RunningWild]

Divination is not prohibited by the Bible, or by the Jews or by the Christians. The Prophets, the greater ones and the lesser ones of the Bible, were only the people that made it into the books because their messages involved the welfare of the entire People Israel, and not individuals. Prophecy/Divination was common. However, "witchcraft" was prohibited...in the land of Israel, and only in the land of Israel (and only for those who were/are Jewish). This is where people get start to get muddled, IMO.

That's enough of an argument stopper for me. But if someone wants to press on about the use of cards for divination because they don't believe their God would need to utilize such a tool, or because they believe, for some odd reason, that prophets are a special breed and never the common guy or gal, they should go back and reread their Bible. The men and women who are named as Biblical prophets came from many different backgrounds. And they used tools to connect with the Divine. Notably, the use of meditation and the Temple itself.

I could say much more on the subject but really, if you want to stop that person from pressing you further (if they just refuse to give up), then use the Bible to contradict them. If nothing else they'll shut up and go do their own further studies.

 

[RunningWild]

I reread the title of the thread and so felt I needed to say this...I don't equate Tarot with paganism. Not at all. I think Tarot transcends the spectrum of beliefs. Some decks might seem pagan or Christian or whatever other belief systems the artists embrace, but I don't use the cards for my personal spirituality so the artist's beliefs I simply toss to the wayside.

 

[Ambience]

Thanks,

I've said i'm happy to accept his Christian beliefs and we are both right in our own way. He has said i'm catergorically wrong.

I said i'm happy to be wrong- i'm the devil- evil whatever if that's what he chooses to think- it doesn't change my view that i'm good- i'm on a good path and my own "god concept" is of love and doing acts of kindness in life.

He seems to think all people who read tarot are naive and at the highest level of tarot is where the darkness is. Talks about free masons and starts telling me i don't know what i'm talking about because i just say i don't need a religion- i know how to be good in my heart.

Tells me my heart isn't reliable- that's pagan and that i need some kind of doctrine for guidance. I think i'm wasting my time.

He has read all the scriptures- tells me to read the bible and the book of enoch- which i'm just not bothered about reading. Tells me that he knows everything there is to know about mystism and that i don't know my history and the history of what i believe is the history of evil and that i'm going to lose myself and become evil over time.

Totally bizarre to me- i learn from my life experiences- i'd no more believe in the word of the bible as fact than i would a fictional novel. On the other hand- i don't discount it's good metaphors etc- but see them as just that from the bits i have dabbled in.

Apparantely it is satan communicating to me through the cards. I did argue satan as he sees it, is the shadow side of god in my world- not some demon coming to get me and that i'm not afraid of some hell or being eternally tortured and that i feel i'm on the right path.

I'm not trying to argue a case against christianity - he is searching for some truth and i'm trying to provide alternative perspectives. Maybe i'm wrong and he actually just wants to concrete in his chistian belief system.

I'd like to be able to give him something to think about in terms of why tarot is acceptable within the framework of christianity. Although in terms of my own belief- i don't need it to be acceptable as i do understand tarot. It is just for his benefit.

In the way i explain divination - as being harmless- self development , meditational, for positive councelling, as the cards not being important- more the message from god- i.e you could read without cards etc. As long as the intent is on god and goodness that is the important thing. I don't know of anyone who does tarot thinking- i'm going to harm people with this- i'm going to tell them things that are going to hurt them, but perhaps they do and this is why it has been forbidden- on some self fulfilling prophecy kind of level.

My mum was once told by a tarot card reader she was going to be killed by a red bus. I guess this is what the bible is shielding against- misuse of power perhaps?

 

[gregory]

Well, if he continues to say you are categorically wrong, all you can say is "That is your view and I accept it is what you believe." Over and over till he gets bored with hearing it.

It's like those people who PERSIST in repeatedly offering alcohol at a party to someone when they have said they aren't drinking (for whatever reason - I have even seen this happen with known alcoholics ) - you just keep saying "I just don't want to, thanks." One does not have to engage in discussion about it !

 

[Richard]

It often accomplishes absolutely nothing to argue with a Christian, because they tend to take the attitude that faith always trumps logic. It doesn't work to confront such a person with the facts because they effectively filter out what you're saying whenever it runs counter to their beliefs. It's usually a waste of time and effort to attempt to open a closed mind. Sad but true.