Petit Oracles de les dames, c. 1807

[Huck]

Petit Oracles des Dames, c. 1807

This refers to the discussion at ...
http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=169991&page=12
... further information available in the following posts.

 

[Huck]

 

[kwaw]

Some information from the timeline thread and link to the LWB:

1807. “Petit Oracle des Dames” deck, by the veuve (widow) Gueffier, of 42 cards. The designs are partly from a 66 card fortune-telling pack of about 1790 and partly from Etteilla’s tarot pack (DDD p. 143). It had an 82 p. book of instructions, per Kaplan (vol 1 p. 157).

Kaplan dates it to 1815 and has pictures. Some of Etteilla’s designs for trumps are here associated with suit cards, small images of which are put in the left bottom corners.

A Petit Oracle des Dames (Gueffier) is listed as early as 1802*, here:

Journal typographique et bibliographique, p.334

*Date changed from 1797 - with thanks to Coredill for the correction.

 

[Le Fanu]

There's also this thread...

 

[Cerulean]

Check pictures in III-4...Petit Oracle des Dames

http://www-bsg.univ-paris1.fr/la_reserve/expos/jeu/horsjeu.htm

The pictures belong to the University, but they show some images and cite the cartomancy pack of "Alliette" -- the 1807 pack of Petit Oracle des Dames.

Hope that adds to the 'discovery'...although some pretty samples of divination as well.

Cerulean

 

[Huck]

hi, Mari

well, this is in dramatic manner different to the version we've in the museum. If Jupiter had been really Nr. 2 (I can't judge, what this 4-pictures-compositions are; decorations of a box or cards), then this deck from ...
http://www-bsg.univ-paris1.fr/la_reserve/expos/jeu/horsjeu.htm
had a different system.
But Stephen checked the Museum version with the online text. It seemed to have been identical, as I understood it.
So we have to control this. .... I checked it, at least till Nr. 30. Stephen was right, this seems to be the description of the deck.The information to the text states:

Title : Le petit oracle des dames, ou Récréation du curieux... / (par Alliette)
Author : Alliette (17..-18..? ; cartomancien)
Publisher : impr. de Ducessois (Paris)
Date of publication : 1770-1820
Type : monographie imprimée
Language : French
Format : 82 p. ; in-32
Format : application/pdf
Copyright : domaine public
Identifier : ark:/12148/bpt6k62270d
Source : Bibliothèque nationale de France, département Philosophie, histoire, sciences de l'homme, R-42846
Relation : http://catalogue.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/cb30012112b
Provenance : bnf.fr

... is not directly confirming the date 1807.

Alexander (Museum) gave the information:
WWPCM02462
"Grimaud" (France)
deck No.394 132 "Le Petit Oracle des Dames", 1997
reprint of deck No.588

I don't know, what "deck No.588" is referring to. It's a remake, I stated this.

************

http://www.muenzgalerie.de/kataloge/pdfs/tarotkarten_2007.pdf
... confirms, that the number "W88" refers to a reprint 1991 of a Fortunetelling deck made in 1807 Nr. 588 is likely an older catalog). An example picture (Magician/Fool, 21) confirms, that this a reprint of the same deck.
At Page 44. So it is at least a general assumption, that the reprinted version is from 1807.

I think, the playing card traders often have the better information than the libraries. But naturally this might be wrong in this specific case.

 

[Huck]

To the same question:

DDD in a footnote 5 to pages 143-144 (which contain the few information, that is given to the theme of the Petit Oracle des Dames) note:

"Jupiter and Juno serve as "Protector" (No. 2) and Protectress (No. 3), as they already had in the Petit Oracle des Dames."
This information is given in the context of the year 1810 as part of the description of "the nouvel Etteilla or Petit Nécromancien produced by Robert, another Parisien publisher".
Then they add to this deck, which has only 36 cards ... "Only eight of Etteilla's figures were used, however, including Justice (here No. 4), Prudence No. 14) and Death (No. 36)."

And then comes the Footnote 5.

I don't know, what I shall think of it. It sounds, as if they didn't know the version, which is discussed here, but they know definitely a version, where Jupiter is 2 (as it is given by your library link).

As it seems, the version, which they possibly didn't know, had appeared as a reprint in 1991 and 1997. The Wicked Pack of cards appeared 1996.

 

[Huck]

A little bit confusion has always its charm ...

I found according this page ...

http://www.esoterikshopping.de/prod...ten/Le-Petit-Oracle-des-Dames-BP-Grimaud.html

... a deck, which seems rather equal to that, which I've presented here.

The German explanation says, that it is a deck of Grimaud and of 1880, an information, which the author likely got from the text book.

Well, the small text book found by Stephen is from c. 1770-1820, according Gallica. The playing card seller thinks, that it is the deck of 1807 (well, I can't see precisely, if there are major differences of the seller's deck to this deck "from 1880").

Here is a deck (same motifs), which surely presents another generation:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oraclesdivinatoires/6038671491/in/photostream/
... but it doesn't look like from "begin of 19th century".
This page has it ...
http://www.logos-magia.com/1755-Petit-oracle-des-dames.html
for "from 1807".

 

[Cerulean]

Yes 588 is on the box for the Grimaud/Frances Cartes reprint

and I remember images from my Dover reprint of D'Allemagne of a Petit Oracle des Dames, the images are in color.

Incidently, the reprinted Frances Cartes/Grimaud manuel may differ from the Gallica text...I posted a
little more text in one of the threads for card 23. Maybe I should keep such discussions here.

Back later.

Cerulean

P.S., Huck, Coredil, Kraw and others running internet eyes hitherr and yon...Incredible historical ilumination and joyful discovery! How bright enlightenment from the texts and pictures of so long ago...Thank you for such joys.Iii

hi, Mari

well, this is in dramatic manner different to the version we've in the museum. If Jupiter had b are in color.

een really Nr. 2 (I can't judge, what this 4-pictures-compositions are; decorations of a box or cards), then this deck from ...
http://www-bsg.univ-paris1.fr/la_reserve/expos/jeu/horsjeu.htm
had a different system.
But Stephen checked the Museum version with the online text. It seemed to have been identical, as I understood it.
So we have to control this. .... I checked it, at least till Nr. 30. Stephen was right, this seems to be the description of the deck.The information to the text states:

Title : Le petit oracle des dames, ou Récréation du curieux... / (par Alliette)
Author : Alliette (17..-18..? ; cartomancien)
Publisher : impr. de Ducessois (Paris)
Date of publication : 1770-1820
Type : monographie imprimée
Language : French
Format : 82 p. ; in-32
Format : application/pdf
Copyright : domaine public
Identifier : ark:/12148/bpt6k62270d
Source : Bibliothèque nationale de France, département Philosophie, histoire, sciences de l'homme, R-42846
Relation : http://catalogue.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/cb30012112b
Provenance : bnf.fr

... is not directly confirming the date 1807.

Alexander (Museum) gave the information:
WWPCM02462
"Grimaud" (France)
deck No.394 132 "Le Petit Oracle des Dames", 1997
reprint of deck No.588

I don't know, what "deck No.588" is referring to. It's a remake, I stated this.

************

http://www.muenzgalerie.de/kataloge/pdfs/tarotkarten_2007.pdf
... confirms, that the number "W88" refers to a reprint 1991 of a Fortunetelling deck made in 1807 Nr. 588 is likely an older catalog). An example picture (Magician/Fool, 21) confirms, that this a reprint of the same deck.
At Page 44. So it is at least a general assumption, that the reprinted version is from 1807.

I think, the playing card traders often have the better information than the libraries. But naturally this might be wrong in this specific case.

 

[Huck]

Here is a fragmented Kaplan deck, sold in 2006 for 180 $ ...

http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=4740321

Le Petit Oracle des Dames, circa 1807, France, maker unknown, three sheets comprising 51 half cards, hand-colored copper engravings. The cards are full-length figures, double ended, no text on cards, French suits on 32 of the cards, no indices, these sheets are similar to a pack that was first published in 1807 by Veuve Guffier, Paris, that included text for fortune telling on the cards and was called Le Petit Oracle des Dames. Backs plain. Card size 1 11/16 in. (4.3 cm.) high, 2 1/8 in. (5.2 cm.) wide, one card is 2 1/16 in. (5.2 cm.) high, 2 1/8 in. (5.2 cm.) wide. Sheet sizes: 7 in. (18.8 cm.) high, 11 in. (28 cm.) wide, and 7 in. (18.2 cm.), 10 7/8 in. (27.5 cm.) wide, and 7 1/16 in. (18 cm.) high, 6 9/16 in. 16.6 cm.) wide. Slightly worn, two minor creases, minor repair on sides of three cards.

Not easy to recognize something. Luckily a part of the objects are presented by Stuart Kaplan, Encyclopedia I, at page 157.

Well, there we have the third Petit Orakel des Dames, now in 51 playing card halves.

Somehow an important document of playing card development, possibly a single piece. I don't know ... 180 $ ... what are we doing here ...