Phallus et Mat (and the Fool)

[Daimonax]

Pour ce qui est du phallus visible sur le Mat du TdM, j'ai résumé mon opinion par un montage iconographique:

As regards the visible phallus on the Mat of TdM, I summarized my opinion by an iconographic assembly:

http://www.bacchos.org/tarothtm/matinitiphallus.jpg

Si l'on admet cette identification, cette source iconographique (une semblable), on peut conclure, de la part du dessinateur original, à une volonté de dissimulation par des artifices graphiques et une stylisation des traits, par un jeu de double sens aussi, un premier dissimulé perceptible pour celui qui connaît cette scène, la corbeille et son contenu, et un second pour ses contemporains qui peuvent y voir un fou avec une coiffe "bizarre", que bien des copistes par la suite ont voulu corriger...

If this identification is admitted, this iconographic source (similar), one can to conclude, on behalf of the original draughtsman, with a will of dissimulation by artifices graphs and a stylization of the features, by a play of double direction also, a dissimulated first perceptible for that which knows this scene, the basket and its contents, and a second for his contemporaries which can see insane with an “odd” cap there, that many copyists thereafter wanted to correct…

Evohé !
Daimonax

 

[jmd]

Looking at the image linked (and thankyou for this, it helps in discussing especially non-standard discussions on the matter), I find it difficult to fully reconcile the title of the thread (Phallus and Mat) and the image provided.

The lower left hand picture seems to represent an Abel-like figure bringing as gift a couple of lambs or rams as divine gift. Though there is, if that is the case, a common mediaeval ars memoria connection (taken from ancient Greek sources) about the Ram and Testes, it seems relatively distant to the Mat's phallus.

Further, though one can (I suppose) see into the head-dress the shape of a phallus (rather than the more obvious one between his legs on some versions of the card), is seems to me not intended.

On the XV Diable card, I can see an aspect that warrants such viewing of the detail, but on this card, it seems to me to be that various lines suggests, to the eye that wants to see such without implied intention, the phallus (as I would likewise claim for the phallus-like 'strap' on II La Papesse).

Still, it becomes interesting exegesis, but not, I would have thought, intended depiction.

I also have reservations that the 'crown' or basket on the top left hand image itself contains an image of an actual phallus - though am willing to here be more easily pursuaded depending partly on the origins and intent of the carving. Again, I can see the possibility in terms of how the human mind informs the eye, but not as a necessary representation - that would have to be, I would suggest, more persuasively shown.

What is also great is the possibility, given the image, to consider the animal represented as yet other than previously discussed (dog, cat, lynx, hare, and bear have all at various times been suggested).

 

[Daimonax]

Vous pensez que cette forme pjhallique dans la coiffe du Mat est accidentelle, moi je pense qu'elle est intentionnelle. Mais on peut, il est vrai, douter, malgré le nombre de points de concordance :

Modèle romain de la corbeille avec Silène - Mat du TdM
1 - tout à gauche, bord relevé en pointe de le corbeille - coiffe relevée en pointe à gauche
2 - à gauche boule pavot - à gauche boule (rouge)
3 - au centre, le phallus - au centre de la coiffe, le phallus

Trois détails formels à la même place dans les deux cas.

You think that this pjhallic form in cap of the Mat is accidental, me I think that it is intentional. But one can admittedly doubt, in spite of the number of points of agreement:

Roman model of the basket with Silène - Mat of TdM
1 - all on the left, edge raised at a peak of basket - raised cap points some on the left
2 - on the left poppy swell - on the left swell (red)
3 - in the center, the phallus - in the center of the cap, the phallus

Three formal details in the same place in both cases.


Modèles romains avec Silène et corbeille - Mat du tarot
4 - personnage âgé et barbu (Silène) - personnage âgé et barbu (Mat)

2e modèle romain - Mat du tarot
5 - corbeille portée sur la tête - éléments rassemblés en coiffe pour le mat


Roman models with Silène and basket - Mat of the tarot

4 - old and bearded character (Silène) - old and bearded character (Mat)
2nd Roman model - Mat of the tarot
5 - basket related to the head - elements gathered caps some for the Mat

Cela fait déjà cinq points parfaits de concordance entre ces deux modèles romains de la même scène de rituel bachique avec Silène et la corbeille au phallus avec des pavots (deux temps successifs) et le Mat du tarot.

J'ajoute :
6 - les croisillons sur le côté de la corbeille - les croisillons sur la coiffe du mat (sur la nuque).
7 - Un animal derrière Silène - un animal derrière le Mat

That already reviewed five perfect agreement between these two Roman models of same bacchic scene of ritual with Silène and basket with the phallus with poppies (two times successive) and Mat of the tarot.

I add:

6 - pilot wheels on the side of the basket - pilot wheels on the cap of the Mat (on nape of the neck) .
7 - an animal behind Silène - an animal behind the Mat


On peut douter de ce dernier point. Néanmoins :
Après l'interdiction des sacrifices sanglants, les artistes dionysiastes ne présentaient plus le bouc au sacrifice ou amené au sacrifice mais le "sacrilège du bouc", qui lui valut d'être sacrifié à Dionysos. Un bouc dans la vigne d'Icarios, dressé sur ces pattes arrière, s'appuyant avec les pattes avant, mangeant la vigne.

Bouc sacrilège - animal du Mat
7-a - Dressé sur les pattes arrière, appui avec pattes avant - sur ses pattes arrière (non visibles), pattes avant sur une "forme"
7-b - Mange le raisin - attrape une forme ayant un contour semblable à une grappe de raisin, sortant de la tunique

One edge doubt this last not. Nevertheless:
After the prohibition of the bloody sacrifices, the artists dionysiastes did not present any more the goat At the sacrifice gold brought to the sacrifice drank it “sacrilege of the goat”, which was worth to him to Be sacrificed to Dionysos. With goat in the fortifies of Icarios, drawn up one thesis legacy postpones, resting with the face legacy, eating the fortifies.

Goat sacrilege - animal of the Mat
7-a - Drawn up on the legs postpones, support with legs before - on its legs postpones (nonvisible), front legs on a “form”
7-b - Eats the grape - catches a form having a contour similar to a bunch of grape, outgoing of the tunic


Et pour confirmer Silène derrière le Mat, voir le Silène de la tenture de Dionysos de la fondation Abbeg en Suisse :
8 - Porte un sac (?) au bout d'un bâton - porte un sac au bout d'un bâton
9 - culotte (tunique ?) élargie au-dessus du genou - culotte élargie au-dessus du genou

And to confirm Silène behind the Mat, to see Silène of hanging of Dionysos of the Abbeg foundation in Switzerland:
8 - Door a bag (?) at the end of a stick - carries a bag at the end of a stick
9 - breeches (tunic?) widened above the knee - breeches widened above the knee

Avec trois images de Silène dans uen même phase du rituel, j'obtiens en tout 11 points de concordance, quasi parfaits pour certains.
En complément du premier montage iconographique, un second montage reprenant les points nouveaux exposés dans ce post.
http://www.bacchos.org/tarothtm/silenematmontage.jpg

And to confirm Silène behind the Mat, to see Silène of hanging of Dionysos of the Abbeg foundation in Switzerland:
8 - does Door have bag (?) does At the end of have stick - carries has bag At the end of has stick
9 - breeches (tunic?) widened above the knee - breeches widened above the knee

With three images of Silène in uen even phase of the ritual, I obtain in all 11 points of agreement, nearly perfect for some. In complement of the first assembly iconographic, a second assembly taking again the points new talks in this post.
http://www.bacchos.org/tarothtm/silenematmontage.jpg

Dans ces conditions, je ne peux que voir Silène dans cette image, et donc considérer que la coiffe du Mat est bien dérivée de la corbeille avec phallus et pavots.

Under these conditions, I can only see Silène in this image, and thus consider that the cap of the Mat is quite derived from the basket with phallus and poppies.

Evohé !
Daimonax

 

[Daimonax]

Je concède que la critique est en droit de parler de coïncidences pour tous les points de comparaison qui font du Mat du tarot un SIlène avec tous les objets rituels (dont l'animal pour le sacrifice) réunis en une véritable anthologie des représentations de Silène de l'Antiquité tardive, avec surimpositions d'images diverses. Mais, ce sont peut-êtrre des hasards, certes.

I concede that criticism has the right to speak about coincidences for all the points of comparison which makes Mat from tarot Silène with all the objects ritual (of which the animal for the sacrifice) joined together in a true anthology of the representations of Silène of late Antiquity, with overtaxations of various images. But, it is can-êtrre of the chances, certainly.


Le problème, c'est que j'ai accumulé 22 séries de "hasards" et "coïncidences" de la sorte qui ont toutes en commun de renvoyer à l'univers des rituels orphico-dionysiaques, et à rien d'autre - comme les quelques sources que je pense avoir retrouvées pour cette carte sans numéro dans les deux montages présentés ci-dessus. Il est vrai que ces séries de coïncidenes sont plus ou moins importantes selon les cartes, mais certaines, plus de la moitié, sont vraiment très fournies...

The problem, it is that I accumulated 22 series of “chances” and “coincidences” of the kind which have jointly to return to the universe of ritual orphico-dionysiaques, and with anything else - as the few sources which I think of having found for this chart without number in the two assemblies presented above. It is true that these series of coïncidenes are more or less important according to charts', but some, more half, really are very provided…

Evohé !
Daimonax

 

[Daimonax]

Looking at the image linked (and thankyou for this, it helps in discussing especially non-standard discussions on the matter), I find it difficult to fully reconcile the title of the thread (Phallus and Mat) and the image provided.

Le phallus était le centre, l'élément principal dans la corbeille. Et bien que ce soit un peu prématuré pour soutenir cette assertion maintenant, je pense que le "mat", nom de la carte, désigne non pas le personnage barbu mais ce phallus, un "mât".

Because the phallus was in the center, the principal element in the basket. And although it is a little premature to support this assertion now, I think that the “mat”, name of chart, designates the bearded character not but this phallus, a “mast”.

Evohé !
Daimonax

 

[Daimonax]

... et le Bateleur

JLe problème, c'est que j'ai accumulé 22 séries de "hasards" et "coïncidences" de la sorte qui ont toutes en commun de renvoyer à l'univers des rituels orphico-dionysiaques, et à rien d'autre - comme les quelques sources que je pense avoir retrouvées pour cette carte sans numéro dans les deux montages présentés ci-dessus. Il est vrai que ces séries de coïncidenes sont plus ou moins importantes selon les cartes, mais certaines, plus de la moitié, sont vraiment très fournies...

The problem, it is that I accumulated 22 series of “chances” and “coincidences” of the kind which have jointly to return to the universe of ritual orphico-dionysiaques, and with anything else - as the few sources which I think of having found for this chart without number in the two assemblies presented above. It is true that these series of coïncidenes are more or less important according to charts', but some, more half, really are very provided…

Pour illustrer mon propos, un autre exemple avec le Bateleur du TdM.

Montage iconographique avec une série de "coïncidences" iconographiques entre le Bateleur du TdM et une imagerie en relation directe avec les rituels bachiques romains. Pour les détails des objets de la table du Bateleur qui n'ont pas pu avoir d'équivalents avec l'iconographie ancienne ou des pièces d'archéologie, les "coïncidences" se trouvent avec des références textuelles, tel Clément d'Alexandrie.

http://www.bacchos.org/tarothtm/hasardsicono1bat.jpg

To illustrate my matter, another example with the Magician of TdM.

Iconographic assembly with a series of iconographic “coincidences” between the Magician of TdM and an imagery in direct relation with ritual the bacchic Romans. For the details of the objects of the table of the Magician which could not have equivalents with the old iconography or of the parts of archaeology, “coincidences” are with textual references, such Clement of Alexandria.

http://www.bacchos.org/tarothtm/hasardsicono1bat.jpg

Evohé !
Daimonax

 

[Daimonax]

Others series of "coincidences" for 2, 3 and 4 of TdM

Et tant que j'y suis, autres montages avec les "coincidences" en série entre le TdM et l'imagerie des rituels bachiques (les deux "Papesses" romaines appartiennent l'une, à gauche, à la mosaïque dionysiaque de Djemila, en Algérie, l'autre à la villa des Mystères de Pompéi).
http://www.bacchos.org/tarothtm/coincidencesicono2-3et4.jpg

And as long as I am there, other assemblies with the “coincidences” in series between TdM and the imagery of ritual bacchic (both “Papesses” Romans belong one, on the left, with the dionysiaque mosaic of Djemila, in Algeria, the other with the villa of the Mysteries of Pompéi).
http://www.bacchos.org/tarothtm/coincidencesicono2-3et4.jpg

Pour ces trois séries de "coincidences", on remarquera une autre série de coïncidences, globales, le choix graphique de l'angle de l'image, trois quarts gauche pour le Papesse, face pour l'Impératrice, de profil (tourné vers la gauche) pour l'Empereur.

For these three series of “coincidences”, one will notice another series of coincidences, total, the graphic choice of the angle of the image, three quarters left for Papesse, face for the Empress, of profile (turned towards the left) for the Emperor.

Evohé !
Daimonax

 

[kwaw]

Nicholas Swift in Mirror of the Free has presented similar methodology of resemblances between TdM and pagan artifacts, only in his instance with Mesopotamian rather than orphic.

An extract can be found in the ATS journal here:
http://association.tarotstudies.org/newsletters/news35.html

Also see here:
www.vaxxine.com/mirrorofthefree

I myself have also discussed relationship to the Fool iconography and Orion/Ninurta iconography which has also been reproduced in ATS newsletter here:
http://association.tarotstudies.org/newsletters/news38.html

I also make reference to the possible presence phallic symbolism and the notion of dismemberment as presented by the Christian neo-platonists in my entry on the symbolism of the number one here:
http://journals.aol.co.uk/kwaw93/NumberSymbolism/entries/485

Though both myself and Nicholas Swift have made reference to such iconographic similarities, neither of have claimed that the TdM is a Mesopotamian artifact or evidence of continuing pagan cults. Pagan motifs in Christian settings can be explained by adoption, imitation, transposition, the use of classical models for Christian motifs, the influence of astrology and a whole gamut of reasons that make or require no reference to an underground survival so esoteric and elite as to have escaped the notice of history.

Kwaw

 

[Daimonax]

(...)
Though both myself and Nicholas Swift have made reference to such iconographic similarities, neither of have claimed that the TdM is a Mesopotamian artifact or evidence of continuing pagan cults. Pagan motifs in Christian settings can be explained by adoption, imitation, transposition, the use of classical models for Christian motifs, the influence of astrology and a whole gamut of reasons that make or require no reference to an underground survival so esoteric and elite as to have escaped the notice of history.

Kwaw

La plupart de mes références anciennes sont des découvertes archéologiques qui datent de la fin du XIXe siècle pour les plus anciennes, jusqu'aux années 1990 pour les deux couteaux de rituel bachique. Elles ont été d'autant plus discutées par les chercheurs qu'elles n'avaient pas d'équivalents parmi le matériel archéologique rassemblé depuis la fin du Moyen Age et du début de la Renaissance, conservé ou connu seulement par des croquis pour les pièces disparues depuis. En réalité, pareilles figurations de ces rituels - hormis la présentation du calice et la corbeille au serpent - sont très rares et généralement des découvertes récentes.

The majority of my old references are archaeological discoveries which date from the end of the XIXe century for oldest, until the years 1990 for the two knives of ritual bacchic. They were all the more discussed by the researchers whom they did not have equivalents among the archaeological material gathered since the end of the Average Age and of beginning of the Rebirth, preserved or known only by sketches for the parts disappeared since. Actually, similar figurations of these ritual - except the presentation of the chalice and the basket with the snake - are very rare and generally recent discoveries.


Alors, comment ont-elles pu être copiées et adaptées par simple imitation? D'autant que ces images du tarot semblent mieux documentées sur ces rituels que ne l'est la pointe de la recherche en histoire ancienne et en archéologie dessus, le tarot semble expliquer davantage cette iconographie des rituels bacchiques que le contraire. Et loin de tout néoplatonisme littéraire.

Then, how they have been able to be copied and adapted by simple imitation? The more so as these images of the tarot seem documented better on these ritual that is not to it the point of research in old history and archaeology above, the tarot seems to explain more this iconography of ritual bacchic that it opposite. And far from any literary neoplatonism.

Evohé !
Daimonax

 

[kwaw]

The majority of my old references are archaeological discoveries which date from the end of the XIXe century for oldest, until the years 1990 for the two knives of ritual bacchic. Evohé !
Daimonax

Many of Nicholas Swifts comparisons are with 19th+century archeaological discoveries of Sumerian seals, the parallels he makes are frequently striking, should I then consider the TdM pattern a survival of a sumerian liturgy? Or should I be looking at how this variety of methodology is to be accurately applied?

Kwaw