Mabuse
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_1809804.html?menu=
AG Mueller may now discard Juno and Jupiter and replace them with Popes!
AG Mueller may now discard Juno and Jupiter and replace them with Popes!
Popes on Trump cards are OK now!
le pendu
AH!
Now it ALL makes sense!
The original trumps of the tarot was 32 popes!!!
We've had this backward all the time thinking that the replacement of the Pope and Popess was a "Later" thing, when in reality 20 of the original pope cards were replaced, and 10 were lost!
Now if I can just find an ancient alphabet with 32 letters in it!
jokingly,
robert
Now it ALL makes sense!
The original trumps of the tarot was 32 popes!!!
We've had this backward all the time thinking that the replacement of the Pope and Popess was a "Later" thing, when in reality 20 of the original pope cards were replaced, and 10 were lost!
Now if I can just find an ancient alphabet with 32 letters in it!
jokingly,
robert
Ross G Caldwell
And here I was thinking the original deck contained nothing but Devil cards! And a few fools.
More seriously, I noticed recently that all places where tarot has been played and survived are Catholic countries/regions. Italy, France, southern Germany, parts of Switzerland, Austria, Hungary. Tarot never caught on in protestant countries (and was never played in Spain or Portugal or their colonies).
This is an interesting rejoinder to those who insist that "the Church" has always wanted to suppress the tarot. In fact it is in those countries where the Catholic Church was strongest that the tarot has always been strongest.
More seriously, I noticed recently that all places where tarot has been played and survived are Catholic countries/regions. Italy, France, southern Germany, parts of Switzerland, Austria, Hungary. Tarot never caught on in protestant countries (and was never played in Spain or Portugal or their colonies).
This is an interesting rejoinder to those who insist that "the Church" has always wanted to suppress the tarot. In fact it is in those countries where the Catholic Church was strongest that the tarot has always been strongest.
MikeTheAltarboy
Ross,
I'd noticed that too. And I've had to restrain myself from saying so several times, since I don't *really* want to get threads off track and start arguments. But I wonder where so many people seem to have come up with that notion?
I'd noticed that too. And I've had to restrain myself from saying so several times, since I don't *really* want to get threads off track and start arguments. But I wonder where so many people seem to have come up with that notion?
Mabuse
Why no Tarot game in English/Spanish speaking world
It is my belief that if the Tarot game remained popular throughout France, it likely would have eventually crossed the English Channel and also would have infiltrated the neighboring country of Spain and from England and Spain it would likely have spread to the Americas. It's quite amazing how Tarot's destiny has been controlled by France.
Unlike today, where the Tarot game currently enjoys wide popularity in France, the game was actually dormant during most of that region around the time of de Gebelin's Primitive World. It was however played in the Eastern part of France, Germany, Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark, Russia and, of course, Italy. This information is according to Michael Dummet and also de Gebelin himself wrote that the game was unknown in Paris.Ross G Caldwell said:
It is my belief that if the Tarot game remained popular throughout France, it likely would have eventually crossed the English Channel and also would have infiltrated the neighboring country of Spain and from England and Spain it would likely have spread to the Americas. It's quite amazing how Tarot's destiny has been controlled by France.
Ross G Caldwell
MikeTheAltarboy said:
I think it comes from the belief that the tarot teaches ancient wisdom that had to be kept secret. It had to be kept secret because it was heretical or dangerous. Therefore, tarot was persecuted by the Church. This is why you don't see tarots before the beginning of the Renaissance - they were kept completely secret before then for fear of the Church.
You can see how a circular argument like this works; and this circular argument has the additional feature of not having a single factual premise.
But the fact that the tarot existed *only* in Catholic countries until the very late 19th century - a century after it had already become esoteric - makes nonsense of the "persecution" argument. At least for those with any historical sense.
Most importantly, the Church actually never tried to suppress the tarot. Individual moralists often raged against playing cards, including tarots, in the 15th century; but no council or papal pronouncement ever said anything against them (until the 20th century, when they are known for fortune-telling and are lumped together with other methods).
The closest the Catholic Church ever got to messing directly with the tarot, was in 1725 in Bologna. The Pope's representative, essentially lord of the city at that time, because of a political issue demanded that the four "popes" in the tarot game be changed into Saracens or Moors, and that the Angel (Judgement) be changed into "A Lady". Essentially, they tried to completely take out Christian references from the trumps.
To avoid imprisonment and/or fines, the cardmakers of Bologna fell in line with half of the demands - they changed the Popes into Moors, but they kept the Angel.
(I think this is the distant origin of de Gébelin's 1781 claim that the "Pendu" is the "just punishment of the cardmaker, because he dared to make a Papesse". Sorry for the digression, I just love yakking about history...
In any case, the Church never ever claimed there were heretical doctrines in the cards or tried to suppress the cards or waged active persecution against them. And furthermore, until the late 19th century the game only existed in Catholic countries anyway.
Ross G Caldwell
Mabuse said:
Around Paris, yes. But it remained popular in the east (as you note - Strasbourg area) and south (Provence).
Tarot in Russia in the 18th century? I could have missed some indication of this somewhere - what is the reference?
It's true that some Englismen knew about the game, I think in the 17th century, but it never became popular or appears to have been made in England.
Tarot had plenty of time to cross the channel or go to Spain, but it just didn't suit the national character or something. To me Spain is the greater mystery; they use the Latin suits, like Italy, and the Catholic imagery of the trumps would not be foreign to them. Not only that, but Spain ruled most of Italy for over two hundred years... why no cultural exchange on this level? Why no Minchiate in Spain, when the 16th-17th century was the height of the game's popularity, and even had a French version?
But on the other hand, the game of tarot appears never to have been known in the Languedoc or anywhere else west of the Rhône, even in the 16th and 17th centuries. It's only in modern times (when you have "tarot nouveau" and "tarots divinatoires") that anybody here plays it.
Just lots of questions to speculate about.
Mabuse
Ross G Caldwell said:
The information about Tarot in Russia is from chapter 3 in Dummet and McLeod's "History of Games Played with the Tarot Pack" and also there is a tarock published by Piatnik "Russiches Tiertarock" which appears to be a Russian (tax stamp on Ace of Diamonds) version of the Goebl's Bavarian Animal Tarock. There are unfortunately no game rules for any Russian version of the tarot game given in HOGPWTTP. Dummett's oft quoted mention of Russia as he declares the years between 1730-1830 to be a golden era for the game of Tarot appeared earlier in his Game of Tarot and is also cited in the history article on the Tarotpedia Wiki.
http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/index.php/Tarot_History
"The hundred years between about 1730 and 1830 were the heyday of the game of Tarot; it was played not only in northern Italy, eastern France, Switzerland, Germany and Austro-Hungary, but also in Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden and even Russia. Not only was it, in these areas, a famous game with many devotees: it was also, during that period, more truly an international game than it had ever been before or than it has ever been since...."