Sacred Circle --The Underworld


MeeWah said:
Rather than quote Fulgour again, I have to state I feel the same.

The Underworld is the tempering card or the great leveler--where every man regardless of his station in life must pass through. One perforce enters this realm with nothing of the earthly ties or possessions; thus figuratively with nothing to hold one back from this passage. Yet this is the beginning of the hardest part of the soul journey as this is the underworld realm of self. After all is said & done, one must meet one's shadow self, replete with all the repressed fears & issues buried deep in the subconscious.

I understand and agree with what you are saying, and I don't see the Underworld as being a substitute for Temperance, (usually #14). Card #16, Initiation, is ment (according to the book) to replace Temperence. That does pretty much make sense to me.
My question is why can't you and Fulgoar and other people who find the numerology very meaningfull and important just remove the number on the bottom of the card in your deck, and put in the number that you feel is correct? That way the numbering would be correct and would not be "off-putting" for you.
I don't mean to be dense, or insensitive, but I really don't understand why either of you don't do that. Can either of you explain, please?

I'm sure you both have realized by now that I can't count to 20 with my shoes on, let alone understand or do numerology, but I bet I'm representitive of many others following this thread...... some of whoem are too shy to ask the really dumb questions :D


My thoughts came from the author's making a direct
association between 14 The Underworld and Samhain.

Samhain is a very Scorpio type event, and that seemed
to bring Temperance directly forward and into conflict
with switching the order of the cards around, but still
(perhaps in a divinely inspired way) being much alike.

It isn't really that Numerology or Astrology are at odds
with the arrangement ~ it's more that the Universe will
always find a way to be True, name it as ere thee might.


Magpie9: A reasonable question.

I prefer to not alter a deck & to try to use it as it was designed &/or intended by its creator. A reader brings to each deck an individual perception influenced by the cumulative experiences including that of reading. Being receptive to other perceptions can enhance an understanding & appreciation of the cards, specific deck or not. Since I like the deck concept & its images, I do not see the conflict as with the deck as much as possibly with my own perception or lack of same. Until such time as I should conclude otherwise, I am willing to suspend my views, adjust them or just wing it to use this deck.


Way Cool!! I'm glad to hear it--you had me worried for a moment there! :)


I have to admit, at first I did thing YUCK! Underworld as 14?! Wheres temperance?! Well DUH it is temperance :p

As I said in the Intiation posts, for me the Underworld represents the Longest Night (Intiation representing the new dawn of a New year, the rebirth of the Mabon Child). As part of my practices on this night, I stay up all night, thinking and meditating on the year overall, things I have learnt, how I have grown etc. To the Celts, they measured the days and years through the nights, so the sunset marks the end of one day and the beginning of another (like death is a celebration for we are beginning a new life). This night is a night of balance, of moderation, of evaulation, of seeing where i've done good, and where i've done bad, what i've learnt and my mistakes. Its a tough job, and you can almost feel the cold look of the Dark Lord saying you've got to do this, you've lived in the light, and now its time for my turn, you have to live in the dark, face up to your responsibilities and mistakes, otherwise you might as well fall asleep and keep plodding along.

The 2 dragons remind me deeply of the Yin and Yang symbol, especially as the red dragon has a little bit of green on its tip. One can't survive or be seen independently from the other - we need balance, we need to have the alchemy and art to bring these two together and bring great fortune in our lives, bring great joy and magick.
Death deals with Samhain, and Underworld marks the end of Samhain and to Yule, but they both herald a dark time for us and the old Celts.

The reflection and hard gaze of the Dark Lord would have come to the old Celtic Kings, making them find if they are worthy enough to live into the new year, if they have the favour and fertility of the Earth. If they didn't they would have to give a blood sacrifice perhaps, before a new king is named, a new year has come into the light. The myths of the Oak and Holly king and their long battle every 6 months, though some say that happens at the solstices or at the equinoxes