Tarocchi di Mantegna

SphinYote

I'm wondering if there are any scholarly sources in English (or possibly German) on the deck. (Excepting of Decker, Dummett, and Kaplan, as I have their books on Tarot).

I've only found about three sources that mention it in any depth greater than a brief blurb, one is a bilingual text with only about five pages in ENglish. Another is a catalogue that includes a brief section on two of the cards, and the final is Jocelyn Godwin's "Pagan Dream of the Renaissance," which while interesting seems a bit....one sided.

I'd like to know of any articles, books, or portions of books that mention the deck, or possibly, since it is neither Tarot nor by Mantegna, if there is another name it goes by that I'm as yet unaware of...

Any help would be most appreciated.

Thanks

SphinYote
 

Huck

Recently I wrote in another forum of aeclectic, topic "OLd Mantegna"


"Here you find also some Mantegna pictures from Albert Duerer for comparition (said - with insecurities - to be of 1495 and 1505) together with the Cologne version of Ladenspelder.

http://trionfi.com/0/j/d/Mantegna/

The genesis of the Mantegna Tarocchi is discussed at

http://trionfi.com/0/gg/ ... (the article defines itself as "in development)

The conventional estimation for the date of the Mantegna-Tarocchi is "about 1465". This opinion was manifested by Arthur M. Hind in 1938 on the consideration of appearances of some Mantegna motifs, which have the the dating 1467/68.

However, this is only an opinion. We doubt the logic of it ... a few appearances of some motifs do not prove the existence of the whole series.
As alternative we offer the possibility, that the concept of the Mantegna was composed just by using older already known motifs (it was normal custom to copperplate-engravers to use older motifs). In this case it is assumable, that the final edition of the first series (there are 2 different: E-series and S-series) took place about 1475, the second possibly 1485.

The argumentation is very complex. ... :) .... it's one of the revolutionary hypotheses of trionfi.com - so not a generally one and long accepted, but we consider it as a correct (and necessary) alternative hypothesis against the other established model. Some researches in this direction seem to strengthen this argumentation. Of importance in this argumentation is the Lazzarelli manuscript, which used 22 of the 50 pictures in "about 1471" (as illuminations, not as copperplate engravings. For certain reasons we see Lazzarelli (later a "magician") in an unclear way involved in the "final composition" of the complete series. Lazzarelli found "his motifs" in a Venetian bookstore, which likely offered various art material from different artists (totally unclear, if this were engravings or other miniatures - we've no access to the document, which offered this information).

The later copperplate engraver just had to copy them - likely something he was used to.
Hind himself expresses the opinion, that the style of the engraver of a Ptemolaios work in Rome produced in the year 1478 would be so similar, that one might see the engraver of the series in it. What, as it seems, Hind didn't know, is, that the engraver of this in German art research was already identified. Sweynheim or Pannartz, the both early book printers in Rome, are assumed to have done the work (Sweynheim would be more likely).

The presence of Lazzarelli in Rome is proven. He was well known and honoured in the Accademia Romana. In a 1493 woodcut version (planned to serve as illustrations in a book production, which never realised) by Wolgemut (master and teacher of Duerer) the project was called "Roman triumphs".
There is evidence, that the Mantegna Tarocchi was very popular especially in Germany (which can't be said of any other Tarocchi cards). From this the participation of a German copperplate engraver is likely. As copperplate-engraving was a technique, for which generally German and Flemish artists are famous (more famous than Italian artists), it's also not surprizing, that it was a German. As the motifs and the whole theme is obviously Italian ... the solution "a German in Italy" makes sense.

Sweynheim ... who is more suspectable than Pannartz in this matter ...was as Pannartz book printer. But book printings needed here and there also illustrations. It is not unusual, that he could also work out some engraving. Well ... naturally there is the possibility, that they both had jobs for a 3rd unknown artist, who did the engraving work for them

####
Murray Menzies helds the opinion, based on own iconographical researches, that the Mantegna Tarocchi was made by Angelo Parrasio, working in Ferrara till 1456. An outsider opinion, based on a statement of Kenneth Clarke in 1933 ... but it's worth to take a look on his website.

http://murray-menzies.com/

Counter arguments to this early dating:

1. Copperplate engraving hadn't in this early time not the perfection of later dates.
2. The work of Angelo Parrasio is very unclear. He is not noted as copperplate engraver.
3. Missing of early parallels in other art production, which appear variously since 1467.

####
Unluckily we cannot offer the original E-series and S-series in the moment.
Stuart Kaplan in Tarot Encyclopedia I offers a longer article with most of the pictures (a little unsatisfying presentation of the pictures). The Cologne Ladenspelder version is near to the E-series.

####
One should know and realise, that there are more Mantegna Tarocchi documents (complete or fragmented series and side documents of similar character and motifs) still extant than of all other 15th century Tarot documents together. There is evidence, that this series was really very popular - and really successful. Quite different to luxury decks for court ladies, which determine our main knowledge about 15th century Tarot.
But a use as playing cards is unknown - some were bound together in book form.
We assume, that it was a common Rome-tourist (for pilgrims to the jubilee 1475) article, possibly sold as single engravings or as series."
 

darwinia

Another Article

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/mantegna.html

I printed this out to augment my study of the Lo Scarabeo silver edition of this.

I use the deck for straight mythological/historical studies and fun myself. Plus its depiction of humans of the day is interesting.
 

SphinYote

Thanks so much for your replies.

Unfortunately, I should have made something clear in the first post, this is for a paper assignment, and we're not supposed to use web sites.

I feel kind of bad that I didn't specify that and you went to so much trouble to write everything. But thank you.

This is one of the things I'm so frusterated with. I know that a lot of the information online offers in English what is probably contained in the non-english sources. Unfortunately I'm barred from using it, given the general academic attitude towards the internet (not to say that the attitude isn't unfounded, but in some cases, possibly like this one, I suspect it may be taken too far...unfortunately I haven't come across enough offline written documents in English to be able to confirm what's written online, even).

Again thanks though,

I may email the people who run the sites to see if they can give me further guidance in this.

SphinYote
 

DoctorArcanus

Book by John Shephard

According to the excellent site by Michael J Hurst cartedatrionfi http://www.geocities.com/cartedatrionfi/Fragments/Mantegna.html a good reference for the so called Mantegna is:

Shephard, John. The Tarot Trumps: Cosmos in Miniature. Aquarian Press, 1985.

Although any detailed significance of the middle decades is obscure, the overall design is not. The best explanation of the overall structure and meaning of the Mantegna series was given by John Shephard, in his 1985 book, The Tarot Trumps: Cosmos in Miniature. Shephard's analysis of the Mantegna series is not well known or readily available, so he will be quoted in detail.

I found the post by Huck quite suprising. I had no idea the Mantegna was so popular in the 15th century. I also knew nothing of the illuminated versions. Very interesting!

Marco
 

Murray Menzies

'Mantegna' and origin of Tarot

Hi

Regarding the so-called 'Mantegna' Tarocchi and the origin of Tarot, those with Firefox browsers can get a clean view of my new and important research at;

<www.murray-menzies.com>

which has been recently up-dated at;

<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LTarot/message/3147>

Prints of the so-called Mantegna - properly identified as Angelo Parrasio's Matrix - are very beautiful engravings, (but not as beautiful as Solandia's illuminated versions) and I have 300 dpi scans of my laser copies from Arthur M Hind's hard-to-get 8 volume Early Italian Engravings (1938).

I also have copies of Hind's text and original articles from the equally hard-to-get Burlington Magazine (1933) some of which can be seen at;

<http://trionfi.com/0/g/75/t.html#a>

This is heavy stuff, in both concept and MB terms, and it isn't available anywhere easy. But, if there's a demand from scholars, I can make it available on disk for a nominal cost to cover p&p from New Zealand - Say $10 in whatever currency happens to be at hand.

Cheers
Murray
 

jmd

A pity you have restricted your site to those wishing to use FireFox (which I do not)... preferring by far Safari.

Welcome to Aeclectic in any case, Murray Menzies, and trust you will explain some of your key discoveries and how you see they relate to the origins of Tarot.
 

Huck

SphinYote said:
Thanks so much for your replies.

Unfortunately, I should have made something clear in the first post, this is for a paper assignment, and we're not supposed to use web sites.

I feel kind of bad that I didn't specify that and you went to so much trouble to write everything. But thank you.

This is one of the things I'm so frusterated with. I know that a lot of the information online offers in English what is probably contained in the non-english sources. Unfortunately I'm barred from using it, given the general academic attitude towards the internet (not to say that the attitude isn't unfounded, but in some cases, possibly like this one, I suspect it may be taken too far...unfortunately I haven't come across enough offline written documents in English to be able to confirm what's written online, even).

Again thanks though,

I may email the people who run the sites to see if they can give me further guidance in this.

SphinYote

History - anyway, if written "scholarly in books" or "somehow wild in internet" - stays always fiction. Even if the researcher is totally honest, any attempt only tries to realize for the reader insight possibilities about certain objects... in this case something called "Mantegna Tarocchi", although likely neither a "really Tarocchi" nor "from Mantegna".

The "general academic attitude" is another fiction, it creates the idea of "special quality", a safety mark ... in other words, a very special illusion.

The "general academic attitude" was born long before internet. If it rejects "internet", it rejects new technologies, new ways of research and new ways of communication. If you follow this "attitude", you actually work - now in 2005 - like an idiot.

When book printing was manifested in 15th century, also old ways of "science" existed. The new technology was also rejected by comtemporaries. When texts hadn't colourful illuminations, they were "worthless". This specific arrogance for instance was expressed by one of the colorful figures of renaissance, Federico Montefeltro, who built up a nice library in Urbino (which now is object to research in many ways ... :)).

Nonetheless Montefeltro and those others couldn't stop the new methodes of book printing and their resistance is now just a curious story told in "yesterday it happened".

In playing card research your attitude is especially funny. This isn't really "science" ... this is an attempt of various "single persons" of the past, to get insinght of an object, which interested them. They collected information, they made some conclusions, they manifested them in some printed media. Their communication took occasionally centuries and decades, before a message reached the really relevant and answering reader.

In recent times (the past 30,40 years) these research interests had found some relevant "operational base" in the IPCS, the International Playing Card Society.

On the base of the membership in this group one of the leading heads, Sir Michael Dummett, in reality a reknown professor for philosophy, manifested somehow Tarot history as science or academical study (of course somehow also only an illusion, actually its just a good book, "Game of Tarot" - from Ferrara to Salt Lake City) around 1980, accompanied by another work with more popular acception, the Tarot Encyclopedias of Stuart Kaplan.

The proceedings in the IPCS are "slow and ineffective", considering the technical possibilities of today.
As an example: Franco Pratesi published 1989 some relevant data to the - by us called - Michelino deck, which corrected earlier assumptions to some data. This article was printed in the IPCS-paper and reached about 500 members (from which by far not all have specific eyes on early Tarot history, but various other playing card interests). So Franco Pratesi's article didn't reach much active minds.
When we started to work about the Michelino deck, that was about 2003, we found to the whole case a short internet page, not very remarkable. And elsewhere the whole case was more or less forgotten.

This was the result and the work of your "general academic attitude". The historical progress of yesterday.

Meanwhile we've made various progresses to the theme and you find them at

http://trionfi.com/0/b

It contained 3 or 4 times more material than the original articles of Franco Pratesi, inclusive a translation of the relevant documents.

This was possible to arrange within 3 years with "Internet Tools", and, btw., considering the whole production of Trionfi.com, it is only a side stream of our development, and only one small progress beside many others, which were done in this time. And the article was read meanwhile by a few thousands readers ... surely not all very competent readers, but anyway, people have the chance to be informed if they desire.

Your "general academic attitude" ... you can forget about it, it's simply not on the height of research and all, what we see, it has disqualified as "too slow" and not operating in a dynamical progress as Internet offers.

As far the Mantegna Tarocchi is concerned ... what do you want, "real information" to it, or is it just your desire to get yourself a name inside this temple of yesterday, accepted by all these "general academic attitudes" .... and in this case you've to accept, that we - ... we define us just as as researchers by heart and passion ... - just smile about your fine differences.

Our object are "good informations" and "right conclusions" ... if we hear about them in a pub talking to somebody, in private internet communication, in internet forums or in serious old books, that doesn't matter too much.

It's relevant, if it is "good information and if it's "right conclusion", and it's irrelevant, if "nonsense" appears in books or internet documents ... it's still nonsense.
 

Ukkonen

Hi Sphin Yote.

Richard Cavendish mentions the Mantegna designs in his book "The Tarot" (1975), there are some pictures available. If I remember right, the information given is pretty similar to that of Kaplan. The book is out-of-print but good libraries usually have copies.

Another book which might actually provide you more information is by Jean Seznec, and is entitled "The Survival of the Pagan Gods: Mythological Tradition in Renaissance Humanism and Art" (1953).

Hope this information is useful to you :)
 

Murray Menzies

Academia, Mona Lisa and Young Turks

Regarding Huck's rather surly comments about the relative value of research done and published in the old-fashioned academic way of the International Card Playing Society compared to research done and published on the internet, I make the observation that he could have saved himself a lot of wasted work if he had studied the big scholarly books before trying to popularise his own deviant opinions.

A few posts ago he offered an opinion of my work, so I presume he actually read it. By his continuing use of the out-dated term 'Mantegna' to identify Angelo Parrasio's Matrix he shows either a lack of comprehension or a refusal to accept the results of my research.

By placing me as an "outsider" he thereby places people from the very top of pre-WW2 British Art Establishment such as Aurthur M Hind and Lord Kenneth Clark (ask Google) as outsiders. By using a wrong spelling of Clark's name, Huck does not reduce the man's reputation, but merely shows how cheap his own opinions are.

To think that "we don't know where the tarot originated" is just plain foolish, because current academic research is far past this point, although the only internet access to this research will vanish from the public arena when my website finishes its 12 month term in a few weeks.

Because I built the site with no webskills and my FireFox browser, it accidently ended up non-compliant to the most popular browser; 'Internet Explorer', for which I apologise, but I'm not going to fix it because it's stats are just fine and rising all the time - without Meta tags - and the Art Police have placed a Preservation Order on it!

52% of views are by IE, and therefore very rough, but it only takes a few minutes to load a FireFox (35% - was 80% in the beginning) browser onto any computa's desktop from the site, and that's a small price to pay.

The most viewed part isn't about Tarot - which is a spin-off from the main Matrix subject - but the chapter on Art which shows the correspondence between early matrix-derived Moon cards and the Mona Lisa. SphinYote could blow her tutor into the weeds with this!

http://www.murray-menzies.com/CODEX/7art1.htm

Cheers
mm