Tarots Hadar and Conver ?

[Daimonax]

Très proche, le tarot Hadar diffère néanmoins des Conver "classiques" que je connais sur un point qui m'intrigue, sur la Maison Dieu (soleil source lumineuse et éclair montant).

A-t-il disposé d'un autre modèle ancien - si oui, lequel? - ou bien s'est-il permis quelques licences éditoriales que je jugerais "chanceuses"? Cet éclair montant sur la Maison Dieu est-il visible sur d'autres anciens TdM?

Very near, the Hadar tarot differs nevertheless from Conver “traditional” that I know on a point which intrigue me, on the 16-House God (sun source of light and flash going up). It had one does other model old - if so, which? - or it was allowed some leading licences which I would consider “lucky”? This flash going up on the House God it is visible on other old TdM?


Cordialement,
Daimonax

 

[jmd]

I would have to check where, but Hadar does tend to view highly the Dodal and, seemingly, above the Conver (as I too personally do, by the way).

In the design of his own deck, it is also clear that he looked at various models.

 

[Daimonax]

I would have to check where, but Hadar does tend to view highly the Dodal and, seemingly, above the Conver (as I too personally do, by the way).

In the design of his own deck, it is also clear that he looked at various models.

Déjà le Dodal et le Noblet montrent le soleil et présentent un mouvement ascendant pour la "lumière/feu" en haut (éléments absents sur les Conver). Mais c'est cet éclair montant que je cherche, pour savoir s'il existe dans un modèle (et lequel?) ou si c'est une invention de Hadar.

Already Dodal and Noblet show the sun and present an upswing for “light/fire” in top. But it is this rising flash which I seek, to know if there exists in one model (and which?) or if it is a invention of Hadar.

Evohé !
D.

 

[Fulgour]

POLAR AXIS Capricorn

But it is this rising flash which I seek, to know if there exists in one model (and which?) or if it is a invention of Hadar.

I also noticed the "Lightning Bolt - Crooked Arrow" going up
from the top of La Maison Dieu in Hadar's rendition. Weird...

click on link to view image:

http://www.tarotforum.net/attachment.php?s=&postid=368532

*

As this card signifies AYIN (letter 16) and thus Capricorn
we might imagine the "arrow" pointing "up" as the polar axis
which centres/aligns thru cancer/leo & capricorn/aquarius.

 

[jmd]

The 'crooked' arrow is on some decks, for example the 19th century Vergnano, Aslatian Mühlemann and Milanese Dotti, but thereon it follows the direction from sun to tower. The arrow also occurs (downwards) in some earlier decks such as the Paiche deck (c. 1780, Bern). [reference: vol 2 Kaplan's Encyclopedia of Tarot].

If one looks at the Payen and Dodal (amongst others), it does seem a little like the flames from the tower are rising, rather than striking, so perhaps it is not beyond reasonable reflection to consider that as one looks at older decks, combine various elements, and make original decisions, a combination of a zig-zagged arrow (though one would assume lightning bolt and hence downwards), such as on the Gassmann (early 19th century) or Versino (late 19th century) [reference: Schweizer Spielkarten vol 2] may have been made with the more common flame-like depiction.

I have only had a quick look through those two volumes referred to, as they are amongst the broadest with Marseille-type depictions.

 

[Daimonax]

Au regard du modèle ancien que j'ai reconnu derrière la Maison Dieu (lien), je pense que le mouvement montant, de la tour vers le soleil, est le bon, le plus conforme à un tarot original "fantôme", reconnaissable sous toutes les versions, plus ou moins nettement.

The “crooked” arrow is one some decks, for water glance of the old model which I recognized behind the House God (link), I think that it movement going up, from the tower towards the sun, is the good, in conformity with an original tarot “phantom”, recognizable under all them poured, more or less clearly.

http://bacchos.org/tarothtm/iconosatyres/16sarcoserptour1.jpg

Evohé !
Daimonax

 

[catlin]

There are in fact 2 things which I find pretty odd but interesting on the Hadar's Maison Dieu:

- the lightning bolt passes in front of the flames out of the Tower (normally you expect them to go right through them!)
- and the flames leaking out of the Tower do look like a rising Phoenix.

Il y a deux choses que je trouve très curieux, mais néanmoins intéressant sur la Maison Dieu de Hadar:
- la fleche ne passe pas à travers des flammes mais plutot devant
- et les flammes ressemblent à l'oiseau phénix.

 

[Abrac]

At his Web site,

http://www.krishadar.com/A/Index1A.asp (about half-way down the page)

Hadar talks about The Tower. Though he doesn't address the arrow specifically, there are clues to its meaning. The Tower, he explains, is not destroyed. The top is apparently being blasted off from within. The energy within The Tower seems to have outgrown its shell.

I have never seen another version with an arrow like this (though it is possible there is one), but as jmd says, there are others that hint at it.

-fof

Edit To Add: Just realized the link doesn't take you to the exact page. Click the "A Good Tarot Deck" link in the left-hand column, then scroll down.