The Fool in the 5x14 theory

dminoz

I understand that the Fool was originally no. 11 in the 14-trump major acarna, according to the 5x14 theory as postulated by Autorbis. And that it was moved to number "0", because of considerations regarding the totalling of game scores. Is this a fair summary?

My question is this: what evidence is there, if any, that the Fool was ever number 11?
 

jmd

I do not think there is any presented evidence that the Fool was ever numbered eleven.

Rather, part of the overall suggestion is that it may have been valued in card-point-value something unrelated to its numeration (absent, for the most!).

In modern tarot game, of course, it continues to have a point-value of 4.5, along with the Bateleur and the World cards (each also 4.5).

The suggestion that it was positioned somehow as eleventh is not tenable in my personal view.
 

Ross G Caldwell

I take autoribis' theory to be that the Fool is modeled on the Jack or "Unter", the lowest court card. He can be valued 11 (coming after 10), and in German decks especially, this character is often depicted as a Fool, or a character doing obscene things.

Autorbis' theory involves counting points for every trump.

The sum of 1 to 14 is 105.

105 is not an elegant number.

Two solutions are devised: first, the Fool/Unter/Jack is valued at nothing (0); second, Judgement is valued at 20.

This results in a total of 100 points: an elegant and easy number.
(1+2+3...+10+12+13=80; 20+80=100).

I'm not sold on this theory either.

For me, the Fool was either originally the lowest trump, or, more likely, was originally outside of the sequence and used as "Excuse", just like he is in most classic games.
 

Tetrflare

I remember reading something about the fool being the first and the last card of the deck, as such that the meaning of the major arcana flows in an eternal circle, with the fool linking the starting and the ending. Therefore, when there is 10 major arcana used, the fool is 11 or in the current 21 major arcana, the fool is 22 or 0.

Hope it's relevant. I did see before the fool being 11, but I have not heard about the 5x14 theory.
 

dminoz

Thanks, that all makes sense.

Can I widen the question a bit? How set in stone is the order of the rest of the trumps in the 5x14 theory? I know that there is an order laid out on trionfi.com -- but is there specific evidence for this order?

i.e.
1. Juggler
2. Priestess
3. Empress
4. Emperor
5. Pope
6. Love
7. Chariot
8. Justice
9. Hermit
10. Wheel
11. Fool (???)
12. Traitor
13. Death
14. Angel

or are we deriving this order from the A, B, C choices normally used for the 22-trump decks?
 

Huck

There is a broad understanding in modern carnival, that "11" is connected to carnival (carnival starts at 11.11. at 11.11 a.m. each year, at least in specific regions as for instance the lower Rhineland). However, there is reseach, that it is difficult to prove, that this was already in use in very early times.

However, at the 12.11. 1381 an knightly order of the fools was founded (called a "first" carnival organization), in the lower Rhine region. It was considered to last 12 years, which it did (then it was changed to another order). The members had a fool made of silver as sign. The founder, Adolf of Cleve, was listed as 11th member. The facts are not totally secure and occasionally disputed, but there are documents etc.

The Under in 1377 (very near to 1381) in the favoured deck of Johannes of Rheinfelden was numbered "11". From documents at the Brabant we've the impression that playing cards entered in 1379 the region, at least then we've the first document there.

The under is in the iconography of normal cards the card, which is most designed "foolish".

There is an old Roman custom of funny activities at the date 1.1.

There is a medieval "feast of the fools" at the 1.1., which likely relates to the old Roman custom. Prohibited, but still living in renaissance, likely transmuting in 15th/16th century to more modern carnival customs. It was also connected to games and gambling.

http://trionfi.com/0/d/91/

There is evidence at some occasions (between them the Tarot relevant court of Galeazzo Maria Sforza in Milan),

http://trionfi.com/0/g/71/ (in development)

that the 1.1. was connected to festivities, which allowed games and also gambling. Also connected to games seems to have been 1.1. 1441, when Bianca Maria Visconti was guest in Milan.

http://trionfi.com/0/d/

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there is the consideration, that "Tarot as a game" was already played, when "special cards" didn't exist.

Assuming this, then one needs for specific functions in the game cards, which carry the following positions: "highest card", "lowest trump" and "fool-function", cards, which were honoured by a higher worth (4-5 points).

Taking a normal card game, then naturally King is the highest card, Ace the lowest and the function of the fool would have the under.
With that we would have defined the cards 1 + 11 + 14 in a 4x14-deck. With the "1" we would have the magician, who has the suits on his table - so it is designed towards the card game. With 11 and 14 we would have the cards which fell "out of the row" in the 14 Bembo cards.

The number

111111111110110000010

desribes with 1 and 0 the existence of the 14 Bembo trumps on a background of 22 trumps in the Tarot-de-Marseille order.

There are about 4 million other numbers possible, when you part 22 cards in "existant and not existant" with "1 and 0"

... but "just this" good argumentable sorting "happened as a fact".
How much other combinations of 22 "1's and 0's" would have a similar good argumentable sorting?

Even when you find a few 100, let's say 400, and you've 4 000 000 possibilities, then you still would have a probability of 1:10000 against "finding a good argumentable sorting" accidently. Even when you conclude, that there are 4000, you would end with a probability against 1:1000. And when you decide, that there are 40.000 similar good, the accident still would demand a lucky opprtunity of 1:100.

You don't find 40.000, you don't find 4000, and likely you don't find even 400, and likely you've difficulties to find more than 40.

In historical matters you've always difficulties to reach high probabililties for something being true or false. A 99:100 relation already speaks: "it's almost true", at least it is very, very probable. And in research you've decide, if you put your energy in 99:100 probababilities or 1:100 probabilities.

A 99:100 probability turns almost true, when you search in this direction and find more ... as we did.
In research you behave as in an almost unknown city. City have logical rules, after which they are build. When you know the church, you mostly you know, where the shops are ... When you know the station, you mostly know, that they're build a little outside of the old center of the city, before the old city walls. This is not always right, but mostly.
... and so on. You follow such rules in your orientation, sometimes you're wrong, but mostly right. And research is similar. Stupid research is not successful - you go in the wrong direction.
When 100's of researchers say, that the Tarot had 22 trumps before 1450 and search and search and find nothing, then it means, that one has to look in the other direction.When 100's researchers say, that the Mantegna Tarocchi was made around 1465 and search and search and cannot become confident with their findings, then you've to turn the table and look at another place and on the basic premise, if this is really correct.
It's simply probable, that there are wrong somewhere.


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(Later added)

### Just as example:

The Mantegna Tarocchi was likely not readily composed still in the year 1474, and the most likely production date is 1475. Just following that, what is "likely".
The production location was (likely) Rome, the organizing poet (likely) Ludovico Lazzarelli, the engraver (likely) a German printer with the name Sweynheim and the commissioner was (likely) from papal circles and the whole object was (likely) to have a good article to sell it to pilgrim touists for the jubilee year 1475.
(Likely) most individual paintings existed before, not as engraving, but in other forms and compositions. Most relecvant earlier composition: Lazzarelli's poem with 27 illustrations produced (likely) ca. 1470 - 1474, from which 23 pictures have strong similarity to the Mantegna Tarocchi.
Logically it was (likely) Lazzarelli, who developed a further model with 50 pictures - nobody else had more relationship to the Mantegna Tarocchi as he.
And generally (likely): Most engravings are the copies of paintings, which existed before. The engraving process needs more time than painting. So if an engraver worked originally himself, he first made a painting and then engraved. But (likely) usually he took the painting from somewhere and then he engraved.

So there is nothing unsual in the considered process of the Mantegna Tarocchi.

Hind's suggestion, when he found similar pictures (dated 1467/68) to the Mantegna Tarocchi, to suggest that the Mantegna Tarocchi existed before was a blind shot, not more and actually pointing in the wrong direction. He couldn't state that, for logical reasons. Artist A could have copied from artist B, or artist B could have copied from artist A. Still both was possible ... and considering the usual engraving processes, it was likely, that the engravings came later. Hind was an engraving specialist - he should have known that, actually.

Hind himself argumented, that the engravings in style looks most similar to the producer of the Ptolemy book of 1478. What Hind doesn't knew: It was already stated in German dictionaries at his time, that the engraver of this product was Sweynheim.
Sweynheim was in Rome and Lazzarelli was also in Rome. But Lazzarelli was before in Venice and there he collected the pictures. So the product got a Venetian and a Ferrarese style, which everybody recognized and made everybody look in Ferrara and in Venice look for the relevant artist.

But Sweynheim only copied. Likely he hadn't too much own opinions about that, what he copied. He was a printer usually, and printers patiently print that, what other persons have said and, if demanded, they similar patiently engrave that, what other people painted. No problem: the technican has no "content-problem". He's simply good in his own job.

"Content problems" were usually solved by the "creative jobs" ... these were poets usually.
Still around 1480 a major painter in Urbino mourns, that the painters (the technican's) get less reputation (and likely less money) than the poets.

Lazzarelli was a poet. Naturally poets influenced Trionfi games - like Boiardo for instance. Like Martiano da Tortona influenced the production of Michelino da Besozzo.
As Luigi Pulci (likely) influenced the early Minchiate.

Lazzarelli speaks of his unknown painter for the manuscript which finally was in Urbino in his poem ... he calls him his own "Apelles" and leaves it with that ... the Apelles is only a nameless "somebody" - just the technican.

... but not only the technican was forgotten as producer of the Mantegna Tarocchi, but also more or less the poet.
 

kwaw

Ross G Caldwell said:
For me, the Fool was either originally the lowest trump, or, more likely, was originally outside of the sequence and used as "Excuse", just like he is in most classic games.

Well in the Steele Sermone the 22 figures are clearly distinguished as 21, and the fool [not numbered 22, as the presentation in Kaplan may suggest to some]. Such a division does not necessarily place it however outside of the sequence [or at the end, as Kaplans presentation suggests]. The Boiarda poem too makes such a division:

"With twenty and one triumphs; and in the meanest place
Is a fool, because the fool the world adores"

and in the corresponding chapter it is placed at the beginning, as first in the sequence of 22. As in Steele it is mentioned as seperate to the 21, and after them, but nonetheless comes first in the sequence. In the sola busca too, one might consider the fool as seperated or distinguised from the other 21 in being the only one with an arabic numeral [0] while the rest have roman numerals I-XXI. So we have our 21 plus the fool, but nonetheless with the fool commencing the sequence 0-XXI, not outside of it. That is, there are 22 figures of an allegorical sequence of which 21 are trumps; that the fool is not a trump does not place it outside of the allegorical sequence. And the most logical position for it placement in such an allegorical sequence is at the start, as witnessed by Boiarda and Sola Busca; and by the position of a cognate figure in Mantegna, and the position of the fools as lowest numbered in some german suits.

Kwaw
 

Huck

kwaw said:
That is, there are 22 figures of an allegorical sequence of which 21 are trumps; that the fool is not a trump does not place it outside of the allegorical sequence. And the most logical position for it placement in such an allegorical sequence is at the start, as witnessed by Boiarda and Sola Busca; and by the position of a cognate figure in Mantegna, and the position of the fools as lowest numbered in some german suits.

Kwaw

In a triumphal procession logically the different chariots of the show have a row.
Naturally the fool, who accompanies the triumphal procession has not a place on a chariot. He can be everywhere.
Contrarious to this: In the old triumphal procession the slave (or fool) accompanied the triumphator and whispered him occasionally into the ears: "remember, that you are not a god".
The similar "controlling" function was recognized in the medieval fool at the king's place, allowed to speak with open words.

It's a useless question to meditate about the correct position of the fool and search for his real position. He's the free element.
The Fool would whisper in your ear: "It seems, you haven't understood something". And (thinking aloud): "Do you know, what freedom is and means?"
 

Huck

dminoz said:
Thanks, that all makes sense.

Can I widen the question a bit? How set in stone is the order of the rest of the trumps in the 5x14 theory? I know that there is an order laid out on trionfi.com -- but is there specific evidence for this order?

i.e.
1. Juggler
2. Priestess
3. Empress
4. Emperor
5. Pope
6. Love
7. Chariot
8. Justice
9. Hermit
10. Wheel
11. Fool (???)
12. Traitor
13. Death
14. Angel

or are we deriving this order from the A, B, C choices normally used for the 22-trump decks?

Trying to capture your question precisely: We know, that the TdM order exists, but we don't know, when it developed. For the 14 unnunbered trumps of Bembo it's likely, that it followed the TdM-Order, but for instance, you can make some basic exchanges without hurting the logic of the 5x14-theory.

Order-elements which really wouldn't fit:

Justice as Nr. 20 (Ferrarese counting style)
Temperance below Nr. 10 (Ferrarese counting style)
Hermit as 11 (Ferrarese counting style)
Minchiate counting style also not of course. Also Bolognese Tarocchi not.
And other experiments: Sola Busca, Mantegna Tarocchi, etc..,

It's simply likely, that French order and Milanese order touched each other. From Italy Milanese is more near to France than other locations. Milan was under French occupation since 1500 for some time, which might be crucial for the decision, what order would once become the most popular.

Lyon is from 1490-1510 the center of European playing card development and production. Naturally the way how they produced Tarot cards in this time formed later ideas to produce these cards.
 

Ross G Caldwell

dminoz said:
Thanks, that all makes sense.

Can I widen the question a bit? How set in stone is the order of the rest of the trumps in the 5x14 theory? I know that there is an order laid out on trionfi.com -- but is there specific evidence for this order?

There is no specific evidence for it, either on any surviving cards or in any rules. This is one of the reasons the theory is "controversial".

i.e.
1. Juggler
2. Priestess
3. Empress
4. Emperor
5. Pope
6. Love
7. Chariot
8. Justice
9. Hermit
10. Wheel
11. Fool (???)
12. Traitor
13. Death
14. Angel

or are we deriving this order from the A, B, C choices normally used for the 22-trump decks?

One of the reasons the 14 Bembo cards seem to make sense as complete unit is that the allegory can still make sense with so few cards.

But even if we want to see a 14 trump series, I don't agree with autorbis' reconstruction.

For me, the Fool is outside the sequence, but as Kwaw I think correctly notes, for the designer of the allegory he would come first. For allegorical purposes I would put the other thirteen cards (tentatively) as -

Bagattino
4 Popes and Emperors (no ranking among them)
Love
Chariot
Justice
Wheel
Hermit
Traitor
Death
Angel

I wouldn't put numbers on them at the beginning. So the "number" 13 doesn't have to be Death.

The problem of the numbering came later, and in my opinion is the main cause of all the different orders. That's when Death had to be 13.

But for the historical reconstruction of the original order of the trumps, the numbering of them is a red herring.