The meaning of death?

[The crowned one]

The meaning of death? We talk about the meaning of life, not death. A stalk of wheat springs from the ground matures drops its seeds and then dies. Some of these seeds get eaten, others grow into new grass their lifecycle uninterrupted. This is the pattern we see throughout nature. Not reincarnation, not an afterlife, but a cycle. Ask yourself what is it that makes us special so that we get incarnation while the rest of the nature just dies, all this diversity of life on earth over 3 billion years. Most of us acknowledge evolution we can follow the pattern of evolution in species, fossils, and the earth itself.

Nothing I have ever seen indicates an afterlife or reincarnation. Anecdotal stories are, to me, not acceptable as evidence of an after life, and for that matter, its not death if their is still life, So why are we exempt from nature? Is it our ego's and true selfawarenes? Self awareness and empathy, makes a strong case for wanting more then lose and grief out of death for the living, and nothingness is not much to look forward to for those about to die. Ritualistic burials grew into religion? The Skhul cave at Qafzeh, from 130 000 years ago is considered the earliest undisputed site where we see ritual in place ( red ochre and sea shells from some 35 km away)Another area in which the Qafzeh site played a major role was that of burial practices was a grave of a young man, a child and a woman. A family unit. Why bury them together? Why would YOU do that. Your answers, emotionally are likely close to theirs, belief wise much different. The Venus of Willendorf dates only to 30,000 years ago. The period from 900 BCE to 150 BCE is root to many of humanity's most influential philosophical religion based idea's: Platonism in Greece,Hinduism and Buddhism in India, Confucianism and Taoism in China monotheism in Canaan( thus the idea of Abraham migrating to the region of Canaan and the start of one of the oldest monotheistic religions:Judaism. Idea's that lead to Christianity, Muslims ,modern versions of hell and heaven. These things evolved with us through religion. I can not find a single reference to reincarnation that is not related to religion of some sort, it seems to be intrinsically tied to the subject. Not a part of nature,but a part of Man's religions, as rather obviously is afterlife.

Is death nothing more then a epiphenomenon's of life? A causation? Are we separating one thing into two parts, no that is not what I mean, are we adding a second, "imaginary" part to life, that being something after death. Start/end/ second start. I am half way through this life, and I want nothing more badly for end of life to be just a stepping stone, but I can not find anything that can convince me of that, history shows the growth of these idea's, they are not a part of nature, they evolved, like our religions. So in the end death has no special meaning because it is a "just is" it means we end.

 

[Milfoil]

Are you asking about death or reincarnation. Both seem quite different concepts to me.

In a sense, reincarnation does happen in the material world. When the wheat plant dies back, the seed, as you say falls and some survive to become next year's crop but what happens to the rest? It is food or it decomposes in some way, either way it is transformed into something else. Everything goes in this cycle sooner or later, becoming something else.

Many things I have experienced prove to me that a part of us survives after body dies. I have been told things in a mediumship role which were impossible for me to have known beforehand. Unique names, the physical problem a person had which defined them and objects which were special to them. I saw and could describe their appearance. All this to someone I had never met.

There are and always have been people who are sensitive to more than just the immediate surroundings. When our 'dead' ancestors start to communicate with us it changes how we treat the bodies of our dead. We want to give them life in the beyond by covering them with the blood of the Earth, with Ochre.

Before religion, I believe early people must have observed the world around them. They would see the changing seasons from growth to decay and finally a seeming death where nothing moves or grows. But then Spring comes and it all goes around again, that which was seemingly dead, bursts forth with new life, the ground comes alive with new shoots and growth. If the grand scheme of everything is cyclic, how can anything be extinguished for ever? Transformed yes, but extinguished no.

I guess the question of death for me comes down to consciousness. If all energy transforms and cycles, what happens to consciousness? If you believe that nothing is alive in any way other than a series of chemical reactions then consciousness is just another by-product of that mechanical system but it doesn't explain all types of psychic phenomena.

Our original beliefs only survived because the dreams, visions and messages worked. They kept people alive. Since then we seem to have developed increasingly elaborate belief systems which start to contradict themselves but just because human religion has failed, doesn't mean that the basic premiss behind it is wrong.

Even with reincarnation, nothing comes back exactly as it was. Just as a seed grows similar to its parent, evolution is a continuous thing. Reincarnation seems to be the same (if you believe it). Reading the biography of the Dalai Lama is very interesting in that respect.

Can/could reincarnation be trace memories from dna passed down? What animates the body in the first place? Why does that life force remain against all odds sometimes and leave without clear reason others? Is it all down to mechanics and chemistry? I don't think so. Humans have the capacity to overcome almost impossible obstacles with sheer power of will and determination and it certainly has an impact on how and when people die.

 

[caridwen]

So in the end death has no special meaning because it is a "just is" it means we end.

'Fraid so but what a terrifying concept or indeed reality. It's hardly surprising and human to think up an escape from death through faith.

It's so much nicer to imagine our beloved family, pets and friends roaming around in some kind of utopia.

How better to make us better people than to appeal to our innate selfishness ie what we do during our lifetimes effects our afterlife.

Our darkness bred religion: Let there be light.

We had no other explanations for life's ups and downs than some higher power because otherwise it was so meaningless. Religion or faith and ritual gives life meaning, we don't search for answers because they all relate back to our faith. Ritual ties communities together, helps with cohesion and societal conformism.

It all enhances our chances of survival and stops us going mad

In my humble opinion, of course

 

[Milfoil]

Ritual ties communities together, helps with cohesion and societal conformism.

This isn't necessarily true. Most, if not all of our spiritual intermediaries who deal with death live outside society and do not conform to the norm. The witch, fenian, shaman, nagual, sin eaters etc, they all lived away from and outside of normal society. Their services to the living and the dead lying outside of normal conscious experience.

Every one of us has a different view of life and death depending on their own personal experiences and it really does seem to be part of the human condition to find our own peace with death (and life).

 

[gregory]

Every one of us has a different view of life and death depending on their own personal experiences and it really does seem to be part of the human condition to find our own peace with death (and life).

Yes ! Which I think is why you aren't going to find an answer as such, TCO ! I sometimes even wonder if the people who DO think/"know" there is more after death do actually experience that - and those as don't - don't - and then, whether that is because those as don't have got to the actual end of something so are programmed - in effect - to know there is no more, for them !

(I'm not sure where that leaves me, being still rather on the fence about afterwards !)

 

[caridwen]

This isn't necessarily true. Most, if not all of our spiritual intermediaries who deal with death live outside society and do not conform to the norm. The witch, fenian, shaman, nagual, sin eaters etc, they all lived away from and outside of normal society. Their services to the living and the dead lying outside of normal conscious experience.

Every one of us has a different view of life and death depending on their own personal experiences and it really does seem to be part of the human condition to find our own peace with death (and life).

There seems to be a misunderstanding on what I said in the quoted passage above. I was talking about ritual. Ritual is pretty universal and most if not all societies have them. Rituals incude rites of passage, big festivities such as Christmas, marriage and yes, funerals or death rituals so yes, it is true. Unless of course you are aware of a society that does not have any rituals - I'd love to hear about it if you do.

Instead my quote and your understanding of it seems to pertain only to death rituals which is not what I meant (please correct me if I'm wrong). Death within societies does have its own rituals that is also true. Rituals are part of society and help form a bond and community cohesion.

I was not referring to nor did I mention "spiritual intermediaries who deal with death". I was talking about rituals.

 

[Milfoil]

Sorry Caridwen, I thought, given the topic of the thread, that we were talking about death and hence your comment was pertaining to the rituals surrounding it. Even so, even if we look at all ceremony and ritual, the ones conducting such rituals are most often the ones who are distinct or separate from society (certainly in the earliest times). Yes ceremony brings communities together but it isn't the only consideration.

In of itself, it is a means to an end but the basis for ceremony remains, where death is concerned (and that is the point of this thread isn't it?), with those who's extra-sensory experiences bring them into contact with the other side of death that the general community doesn't necessarily perceive or comprehend.

If you believe there is nothing after death that's fine, many millions agree with you but neither side can offer empirical proof either way so it's somewhat a moot point.

As far as TCO's original title to the thread is concerned 'The meaning of death?' - it really does come down to personal experience, culture and belief. Mine is that death is a transition point, it means we are moving to a different state of being. Persuasion about what happens after the body dies either way seems less important that exploration of the subject itself, which I am enjoying. If when I die, all the lights go out and there is truly nothing, what have I lost for my belief in something else? If there is more, and you don't believe, it may be a nice surprise to go further.

 

[Debra]

If when I die, all the lights go out and there is truly nothing, what have I lost for my belief in something else? If there is more, and you don't believe, it may be a nice surprise to go further.

Like Pascal's Wager! Nothing to lose and everything to gain by faith. (Pascal operating in a context in which denying God would be the end of you, if God does exist, whereas faith would get you eternity.)

 

[Carla]

In a sense, reincarnation does happen in the material world. When the wheat plant dies back, the seed, as you say falls and some survive to become next year's crop but what happens to the rest? It is food or it decomposes in some way, either way it is transformed into something else. Everything goes in this cycle sooner or later, becoming something else.


Before religion, I believe early people must have observed the world around them. They would see the changing seasons from growth to decay and finally a seeming death where nothing moves or grows. But then Spring comes and it all goes around again, that which was seemingly dead, bursts forth with new life, the ground comes alive with new shoots and growth. If the grand scheme of everything is cyclic, how can anything be extinguished for ever? Transformed yes, but extinguished no.

Even with reincarnation, nothing comes back exactly as it was. Just as a seed grows similar to its parent, evolution is a continuous thing. Reincarnation seems to be the same (if you believe it).

Beautifully written. I was just going to post something along these lines, but found you'd already done it. I love the suggestion that idea of something beyond death is not wishful thinking, but seems more likely to be a natural outgrowth of observation of the cycles of the natural world.

Ask yourself what is it that makes us so special that we do NOT get reincarnation, while the rest of the nature enjoys a continuous cycle of dissolution, regrouping and re-emergence, all this diversity of life on earth over 3 billion years. Most of us acknowledge evolution; we can follow the pattern of evolution in species, fossils, and the earth itself--life continuously coming back in new ways, building on what it was before. (To reword the OP).

 

[Debra]

Yes, the atoms and molecules are recycled. They recycle whether we're alive or dead. What's upsetting is the dissolution of consciousness and the sense of being a unified self.