Veganism

[earthair]

The spiritual aspect of food always seems to be very biased towards animals and everyone seems to ignore how sophisticated plant life is. I hear from vegan/vegetarian friends how they couldn't possibly eat another sentient being...and then they munch away on a plant -which is equally capable of so many wonderful things like communication, feeling pain, proximity of other plants, sensitivity to sound, light and smell. Humans are so arrogant that they think anything without a brain that looks like ours must be stupid and incapable of feeling!

As a gardener I see how 'death' in plant species like trees is such a long process, with undefinable moment of final death- that I've pruned trees, left the branches in a heap, planted them as pea-sticks 6months later and they've grown roots!

Trees communicate by fungi. Beans are highly mobile. Many species can tell neighbouring plants of impending insect attack.

In the end I eat anything grown organically and killed humanely. Life is life- I don't hold animals to be higher forms of life than plants or insects. They are just different.

 

[Barleywine]

Life is life- I don't hold animals to be higher forms of life than plants or insects. They are just different.

My neighbor would agree with you. He's as non-spiritual as they come and thinks a human being is no better than an ant.

 

[think]

The spiritual aspect of food always seems to be very biased towards animals and everyone seems to ignore how sophisticated plant life is. I hear from vegan/vegetarian friends how they couldn't possibly eat another sentient being...and then they munch away on a plant -which is equally capable of so many wonderful things like communication, feeling pain, proximity of other plants, sensitivity to sound, light and smell. Humans are so arrogant that they think anything without a brain that looks like ours must be stupid and incapable of feeling!

As a gardener I see how 'death' in plant species like trees is such a long process, with undefinable moment of final death- that I've pruned trees, left the branches in a heap, planted them as pea-sticks 6months later and they've grown roots!

Trees communicate by fungi. Beans are highly mobile. Many species can tell neighbouring plants of impending insect attack.

In the end I eat anything grown organically and killed humanely. Life is life- I don't hold animals to be higher forms of life than plants or insects. They are just different.

This is very true, nature is remarkable and very intelligent indeed, but this is also where it gets emotionally charged.

Plants (often) give themselves up freely when they are ripe. Animals are slaughtered. And the circumstances are (for the most part) utterly horrific. Most burgers in the UK, for example, and by most I mean 99%, even in top chains and individual restaurants, use ex dairy cattle that are too exhausted to even walk. (Again, as I've reiterated throughout the thread, the videos I've seen are such as Cowspiracy and Earthlings, they have a bias of ethical treatment of animals)

I don't think humans are stupid, they can be arrogant and selfish, yeah, and that's regardless of diet preference. We are biased and we take whatever we need to to fit our own standpoint.

But if plants feel so much, it makes even less sense to feed more of them to animals and then kill the animal too. Life is life, and spiritually speaking, I feel the same. But the industries sicken me to the core.

 

[think]

Hmmm about the beekeeping, as a beekeeper I have never ever heard of any beekeepers that kill off workers or artificially inseminate queens. All the beekeepers I know endeavor to have their hives overwinter and live through it, alas often unsuccessfully, because beekeeping is heartbreaking and hard where I live as it is a short growing season and long hard winters, and bears break into the hives too. I do not doubt though that huge scale bee farms may exploit them just like large scale farms treat other animals badly. I pay money every year into buying my bees and trying to keep them alive. Rarely do I get to harvest honey as most of the time I leave it fir them unless there is a year with a surplus, which where I live is rare. I keep them for the earth, as they benefit it energetically, and because they make the garden do better, and because I like them bee-ing around.

Not to argue but honey and sugar are the same on one bodily level but very different on others. Honey is far more complex and long chain and has trace minerals and plant esters and resins and protein and pollen traces, and is not just plain refined sucrose. There is a European saying, maybe of Viking or German origin not sure that says "Mead drinkers are as strong as meat eaters."

I was a vegetarian for many, many (I started young so very many!) years but gradually added eggs then seafood and now I also eat humanely locally raised poultry and once in a blue moon, like once or twice a year, a very local farm's beef. But that is like almost never as my partner is allergic to beef from being bitten by a tick! A weird tick disease like Lymes that causes one to have a severe and scary allergic reaction to mammal meat. So weird but true. And I don't care for red meat much except for when low in iron or something. Hate pork, except for bacon because bacon smells so freakin good even when I was a strict vegetarian it was the only meat that still smelled good lol.

Anyway, for me, eating more protein hugely benefitted my health. But I eat better now in general too (partner is chef which helps, as does not being as poor as I once was) and overall my diet is mostly plant based. I eat more vegetarian meals than non, nd have a huge garden.

I have never been a pure vegan because I love butter and cream lol. I worked for over a decade in a place that had a larger number of vegans than the average statistically, and one thing that I observed over the years is that the vegans were almost always more rigid and judgemental people in general. It was uncanny. I have theory that fat is needed in the diet not just to lubricate the joints and skin and fire the metabolism but maybe even to soothe the psyche and smooth the personality. Yeah fat is in nuts and coconut oil but there is something very much more satisfying about butter and also a rich full cream homemade whole milk yogurt that I personally would feel bereft without! I would be crabby and judgemental too, much ss I love nuts lol, if they were my only source of soothing fats.

That's so frightening about the allergy, the human body is so unusual and quirky!

Also I meant to ask where you worked that had a larger amount of vegans than average?

I've never in my life made home made yogurt or butter or anything like that and wouldn't have a clue where to start! Haha.

But just for you, well, because of your post here, I have made an effort to eat avocado on toast for breakfast each day. Haha, I am that fickle, it's true.

 

[think]

Hey think, you seem very balanced and grounded. I was not trying to say all vegans are judgey, just there often seems a noticable correlation that I attribute to a lack of fats soothing quality. And yeah the dairy industry is scary. I am kindo a snob in that I have to buy organic butter even though it is crazy expensive. I sometimes make my own butter in the spring when I can get local cream but it is a bit of a pain as you have to wash all traces of the milk out of the finished butter which is a messy process. So good though if you get cream from well cared for cows that graze on pasture in the early spring. I feel lucky that I live in a place with a lot of local farms, and it is really making a comeback as more and more people grow their own food and raise chickens for eggs and have livestock.

Beekeepers are for the most part doing a service as I read that without them, honeybees may have been extinct by now. So I just keep them in that spirit, knowing that even though it costs me in money and takes some effort and is sometimes a sad thing when they don't make it over the winter, that overall I am doing a service to the environment by bringing them here, as it is said that energetically they heal the land. So it is a "donation" to the planet rather than me trying to get something from them. I think in the 15 years I have kept them I have only taken any significant amount of honey maybe 4-5 times, and that was because there was enough because it was a good year.

But I draw the line at eating people, hah! Most of them are too toxic and the vegans don't have enough fat

Thank you! That's so kind of you to say.

Hahaha, yeah I have plenty of fat tho... mostly because of the bourbons and yummy coconut ice creams.

I'm not sure the farms will make a big comeback here in the UK. My lecturers at uni are dismayed that due to brexit we will lose funding and sustainable farming just isn't a priority here.

I meant to add on my last post that I researched beekeeping, I think it's amazing what you do. How fantastic. It must be so joyful as well to see them in your garden. How many times have you been stung in 15 years?

 

[think]

think, I have to say that I have been enjoying this thread of yours and many of the posts made as well. I'm also learning a lot from it!

Babylon Jones, I agree with you re: the bees and I have a tremendous amount of respect for both bees and beekeepers! I, however, am allergic to bees and wasps--to a big degree, sadly. And, for some reason bees and wasps and such just seem to be attracted to me too--so it doesn't help!!!

We had a huge bee hive in our tree some years back and a beekeeper asked me if I minded him taking it? I think he would've even payed me for it--but I was GLAD to get rid of it and told him "have at it! take the queen and the whole thing, if you please! I'm allergic and they scare the hello out of me everytime I have to go outside!" So, he did.

We have another HUGE beehive in our barn too, about 6' long. I've called a few beekeepers but no one ever comes to remove it, though they are all excited to do so. Partly it also frightens me because we are very close to the National Forest here and there are bears around. I'm always afraid I'll encounter a hungry bear after the honey and then said bear may give chase and catch me too!

We did recently see a HUGE paw print in the snow walking all around our property and it also came up onto our deck, and appeared to go through our recycling buckets. (those buckets and our trash can are kept on the deck in the winter, but luckily the trashcan was empty). Then, the print continues around to our barn and then apparently off to the creek and disappears. Though I am trying to convince myself it is the print of a very large dog, (which it could be too, I guess!

Not that I want to become a vegan or vegetarian--but I do want to try and eat MORE veggies and fruits and only use meat as a compliment to those two food groups. I feel it is more healthy to eat that way. But heck, I'm also a huge sugar eater and so I'd be much healthier too to cut that out. I have to say though that since we stopped growing much of our veggies and I'm buying them in the store, again--they just aren't that tasty! And, yes, some of what I buy I do get in the organic portion--but not all, it depends honestly on the item and the price of said item. I so can't wait to be able to grow our own again!

and, Babylon Jones, your comment here: I have to agree with, once I thought about it a bit. I'd have to add that it includes pretty much any specific diet--such as even some people, (not all!) who are gluten free.

I eat a gf diet to help with my arthritis, and it does help a great deal. In the course of doing so, I've come to know many other gf people. Now, I am a BIG cheater on this diet, because when we travel, its not always easy to find g.f. restaurants and also I am a lover of breads. So special occasions I will cheat to my hearts content (and suffer the consequences). BUT! some of the people I know who are g.f. -- and some of the ones who choose this diet for non health issue reason---can be incredibly rigid and judgmental people, yes! I wonder if it IS the diet? I'm sure you are right and it is, though.

Those who MUST be g.f. or even vegan or what have you kind of a diet for health reasons and I am talking about those health issues more serious then mine where I go g.f. as mine are not life threatening...anyway--if they are rigid and judgmental, I will perhaps be more accommodating with them as far as allowing it to just roll off my back and not worry about it. But you did bring up a very interesting point to ponder with that!

Thanks celticnoodle, I have enjoyed it too. Sorry for not replying to posts until now, I've been reading them but put off sitting down and replying properly.

That is quite scary being allergic to bees and having a beehive! Yikes. I don't think I know anyone allergic to bees here and no one with a beehive either. Very different part of the world. Bears too, eek.

Now I'm thinking of Baloo bear trying to get that honey and being too lazy, and poor Mowgli getting stung.

I hope it was the print of a dog... but even so... well, I won't scare you further. I'm a bit afraid of dogs. Probably I'd be afraid of whatever that was, of that size, so...

Growing your own vegetables sounds such an achievement and so satisfying. I can't imagine doing that either! I feel like I have a lot to learn here.

My friend is a coeliac and she has to be gf, I don't think she's judgemental. She actually says she hates having to cut things out, it's boring and she wishes she could be normal. I dunno, maybe the British values and culture plays a part as well? Just a thought.

 

[think]

Judgmentalism: my husband says it's really about being a convert, to anything: religion, diet, whatever. "I've found the answer and it needs to be your answer too!" So it may not be the diet that's responsible.

I'm an unabashed omni, though I eat far less red meat than hubby does, but I don't want to give it up altogether. I could go vegetarian, though I'd insist on keeping dairy and possibly eggs; I'd want to keep chicken and seafood too. I do like red meats, but what I like most is the flavor, not so much the substance; one of the main reasons I don't eat it that often is purely personal: a texture problem with fat, which I've had all my life. If you grind it all up together I'm fine! Go figure.

I really don't know what the answer is to humane treatment vs. cost of product. If all farms were family farms it would be great, but urban areas don't have that luxury. My father raised chickens when I was a child, but it was purely for ourselves and to sell a few eggs now and then. Some friends of ours in New Hampshire have access to a sheep farm that culls its flock every late summer and we got some young mutton from them once; very good, and it was from a local organic farm. So yes it can be done.

As for vegetables, so many people claim not to like them, but think about it: how many recipes do you see for dressed-up veggies the way the meat or starch in the meal is? How many restaurants just plop the veggie-of-the-day onto the side of the plate without much care? Vegetables are tasty, and if you prefer them cooked, there are far more ways to cook them than simply boiling or steaming and serving plain! Oh, and restaurants (and people at home) need to be more imaginative about which vegetables to serve. There are many more out there than most people realize, and many more varieties of the usual.

You're so right about the vegetables. Since being vegan I've had the chance to eat in vegan restaurants and my meat eating friends all love them too. There are such wonderful dishes, you (general you) wouldn't miss meat. I think, certainly in the UK, that is changing. Four years ago I often would go out for dinner and order a bowl of chips, such was the delight of the menu. Chips or salad or jacket potato and beans. Now all the big chains tend to have one vegan friendly option.

I have been vegan before and I missed, really missed, lattes. Now though, I couldn't stomach it. I think it's because I have almond milk, soy, oatly barista, such a variety, I prefer those to cows milk. And so do my children.

I do miss certain things tho.... tuna, which I substitute with caramelised onion houmous, and corned beef of all things. The 'beefy' taste. I was never a big beef eater, go figure. I don't miss eggs at all and there are vegan cheeses, they're not great but they do.

I agree wholeheartedly about the humane aspect. If only. The issue is the sheer amount of mouths there are to feed, a sustainability issue. I don't know the answers tho. Oh well, that makes sense re judgementalism. Even though I'm a vegan I'm not sure that's the answer even for me forever, certainly not for everyone. Shrugs.

 

[think]

My wife and I stopped eating red meat more for biological reasons than anything else. Her problem seemed to be an over-sensitivity to the growth hormones and antibiotics used in large-scale livestock production, which were apparently causing a great deal of excess mucus in her system, and which stopped when she quit. For me it was bloating and gas, and at one point I read that beef fiber doesn't digest well and putrefies in your system before passing through. When I quit, all of that subsided (although beans do have their own unique . . . ahem, "effluvium" until your system adjusts to them). Digestive function was much better for both of us, although we didn't intend to go vegan or even vegetarian until a close neighbor convinced us.

There seems to be so many issues biologically! I think that's three or four now from this thread alone. Must be common. Another very common 'issue' is lactose intolerance. I actually think most people, everyone, is lactose intolerant and we have to build up a tolerance to it. Same as with beans haha. More tea vicar?

 

[think]

I stopped eating meat many years ago - when I was twelve and understood that animals LIVE. In my pregnancies, I sometimes felt the need for meat and ate it, but that was maybe a bit of chicken or fish, and I continued to live as vegetarian. Very rarely, in the last few years, when I felt the need, I ate fish.

We eat typical Israeli cuisine, i.e., lots of vegetables. Every day starts with a salad. I prepared maybe once every ten days meat for my family, but didn't eat it myself. Two of my children are vegetarians, too (I didn't influence them at all, they decided by themselves after they left home).

But just now, about a month ago, I decided it's time to become vegan. I read Joel Fuhrman's books and although we never ate the so-called Standard American Diet (I know nobody who does), I felt the overwhelming desire to stop eating eggs, dairy (which I always loved - buttermilk and yogurt) and honey. I read so much about nutrition and nothing ever grabbed me like his book. For a long time, I have felt that we humans are such egotists. The meat industry is just cruel and has gone totally overboard. I don't want to be part of that any more.

Neither my husband nor the children who still live with us has any problem with that. So now I prepare a huge rich salad and a big bowl of soup or vegetables every day. I stopped using salt (but won't stop my daughters from adding salt if they wish to), cut down drastically on oil and grains, and I feel great. So does everybody else in this house.

We may add eggs or a cheese in small numbers in the future, but only bought from local farmers (we live in an agricultural area with a farmer's market nearby). But right now, we thrive on vegetables, beans and fruit, with nuts, seeds, avocados and sprouts.

We have always been plant eaters but for now, we're 100% plant eaters. I think food is a personal choice and if people love their meat, it's not my business to convince them. Not everybody loves legumes.

I also think that as parents, we have the responsibility for our children's health. I'm glad my children grew up loving fruit and vegetables, in a society where processed food was at that time nearly unknown. Everybody ate home cooked, fresh food. And I think it's obvious that most processed food and sweets are not healthy.

It's difficult to draw the line properly, I was never fanatic about sweets and made cakes for the children, and once a week, we bought sweets that had to last for the whole week. But they could ask what they wanted to have and we bought it.

But what I heard last week made me really sad and now I think I'd be stricter. One of my little nieces suffers from a auto immune disease. It's painful, and the treatment is dangerous. The doctors told her parents that sweets and simple carbs make it much worse. And what did my cousin say? "Oh, her elder brother won't be able to live without sweets, and we can't deprive only her". So both children continue with a lot of sweets and unhealthy food.

I can't tell you how sad that made me. I can't interfere but I'd love to give them one of Joel Fuhrman's books. But no, I don't want to preach to others, like a typical recent convert. They're intelligent and educated people and all the information about their daughter's nutrition is just a google away.

For me personally, for health reasons, I'll continue to eat vegan, green, fruity and low fat. Although in my case there was no drastic step necessary, I feel so much better. I wouldn't have believed it.

ETA: Since my own nutrition history is not straightforward, what right do I have to preach to others? It's funny the topic came up here right now when it's rolling around in my brain, just like the fountain pen topic

I actually miss fish a bit. I lived for a while as a pescetarian... well, I lived in Spain, so the Mediterranean diet. Which is probably why I can survive on beans and lentils. My friend is Romanian but grew up in Israel and she eats a lot, and I mean every meal, of pork. Also salads. So it's pork and salad, with vinegar. Odd customs to me.

Thanks for the recommendation, I keep meaning to check out Joel Furhman's books.

That does sound strict, however. I mean I'm not judging, I think it's pretty cool. But grains and fat, ha, I have enough trouble cutting out sugar (I need to tho).

That is terrible about your poor niece. Your cousin could cut out sweets from both of their diets. It wouldn't do them any harm and would offer your niece a lot of benefits (and her brother too, come to think of it). They make their decisions as they see fit, and I firmly believe that no parent makes decisions for their children intentionally to harm them (well, I mean there are exceptions, but you know), so they obviously believe they are doing right by them.

Well, you probably have no right to preach, but to share your knowledge and opinion, sure. Thanks for sharing

 

[ashtoreth]

So, I don't tend to broadcast this (but doing it now I guess), but I'm a vegan.

People always ask why, and my reasons are a mix: health, ecological (I study sustainability and resilience), ethics of course, and the more I learn the less likely I am ever to go back to an omni diet.

Of course, I have been brainwashed too, I'm sure. I'm under no illusion that through these docos I imbibe propaganda or they are at least biased.

Anyway, I got to thinking about spirituality. Allegedly a plant based diet offers a shift in consciousness. If we were all vegan there would be no violence in the world.

But most spiritual leaders are meat eaters.

Any thoughts?

That is so weird; when I think of spiritual leaders most are vegetarian at least, if not vegan. Whom are you thinking of?

I am vegan for the same reasons as you. Less so for health, most importantly for the animals , to be sustainable and minimalistic, and for the environmentand. Also this is my expression of love and compassion to all beings.

I believe that all paths may lead to being vegan, because there are not one or two but a number of ways that can justify this sort of lifestyle (Most recently the German govt decided to ban meat at official functions to set an example!)

I also believe that if you live "closer to the land" meaning you hunt and kill your own meat then it is "fairer" to eat it than if you bought it off a supermarket shelf.

This way you are closer to the process and there are no euphemisms or fantasies in your head about how that meat made its way to you. Do you know what I am saying?

I also feel the same way about all food (that we must try to be part of some the cooking process at least) so you know what you are putting into your body.