A non-esoteric view of tarot

[Novbert]

To be honest I'm pretty new to tarot and these forums, yet I'm just surprised that many folks here actually use tarot cards for "telling the future", or to "get answers". Some even say that "the cards were wrong" and "they didn't predict the future correctly so they don't work". Of course there are others who say that cards are only tools and the reading is the reader herself. I recently started to read "21 Ways to Read a Tarot card" and I find it very insightful - mainly because the main point of the book is that the cards doesn't hold any concrete information in themselves, only what the reader sees 'into' them.

Think about it: If you remove all the esoteric mumbo-jumbo from tarot reading, what remains? As I see, this is the case: The reader sees a random set of images in a predefined pattern and she tries to find a meaning for this random stimulus based on her assumpions, knowledge and impressions of those images and their position in the big picture. Unconsciously - or semi consciously - she projects her own biases, thoughts, fears and hopes into those images - basically that's what makes them relevant for her situation and understandable for her.

This phenomenon is known by psychologists for decades - it is used in projective tests like in Rorschach test and such. In those tests random and unstructured images are presented to the viewer and she is asked to find meaning in those images, to describe them. The theory is that the viewer will project the current state of her psyche onto those unstructured images, thus her response on the image tells more about herself than about the image.

As I see tarot works very similarly. What you get in a spread is pretty much random - even if you're convinced that it's not. The only reason that you find a spread meaningful for yourself and your situation is because you project your situation onto those cards. (another person would probably interpret the very same set of cards in the very same spread totally differently - and you both would be right!) Of course believing that the cards aren't random, but relevant for the situation because of the <random esoteric expalantion> actually helps the process of projection because it makes the reader unaware of the fact that she's actually projecting.

This is a key point of projection-based tests anyway. The reader - or patient if we speak about psychology - is better not aware of the fact that she participates in a projective test, the fact that her description of the pictures will actually be used to determine her psychological state. Was she aware of that, she would certaily try to "cheat", lie about it - as we often lie, even to ourselves how we really feel about a specific situation. Of course when it comes to tarot, cheating may make no sense as the reader reads to discover the truth - and cheating would mean cheating herself, but it's definitely a risk.

Considering all these things I can't bend my mind around why people think that reading can be done online AT ALL. The RITE method described in Mary K. Greer's book relies heavily on the querent's responses and I don't think anyone could read without such direct and immediate feedback. As I see online reading is an interesting game at its best - pure charlatanism at its worst.

On the other hand, considering all the aforementioned things, I still don't think tarot would be useless or not worthy to learn. It can be used for good and it can be even helpful and a fulfilling experience for both the reader and the querent. It's a great psychological tool, but thinking it's more that that is plain stupid - at least as much as thinking that it doesn't have anything to do with psychology.

For further reading: http://www.scribd.com/doc/20260033/Semetsky-Tarot-as-a-Projective-Technique
What do you think?

 

[NikkiB]

how about suck it and see?

Yes, that all makes very logical sense, yes I agree the cards are just tools but I have had many readings (lots online) I do many readings (lots on line) and my experience and feedback is one of being able to tune into the situation and provide and receive accurate readings including prediction.

Now I think this is possible with an tool (or without) leaves, tarot, oracle, candle wax - doesn't matter but the important thing is allowing yourself to follow your intuition and the ability to pick up on the energy you are reading for.

Energy exists - in all forms - you cant see electricity its energy tho, the heat of the sun is energy invisible yet tangible, energy is what makes our bodies move and function, once the energy is gone from the body it feels difference, people remark that the "person" isnt there anymore.

So when I read online for people, its about intention, its about connecting with that energy and you do.

For each set of cards there are a million things you could say, so many interpretations but if you look in the readings section you will see how many are completely spot on for the quentants own situation, how many things are bought up that totally unique to that person and that situation.

so logically is great, but actually theres more to life than logic - you don't have to believe me or anyone else about on line readings, why not search out a thread where people are offering readings and have one? why not try giving them one back? see what you think then

we once thought the earth was flat - it was a fact that you would drop of the edge! but someone sailed on and tried it and found it wasn't, The main thing I have found about the tarot journey is to have an open mind, yes there are all the astrological and symbolic bits that we can study until our eyes fall out, but what about the details, the thing that draws your eye that you bring up that hooks it all together for the quenant...

its all in the details

So rather than just think that it's plain stupid (your opinion not based on fact or experience) I hope you take up a reading offer and do a little experimenting yourself, you may find the results stretch your perceptions and understandings - not least when actually you do accurate on line readings yourself...

I don't know anything about you, but I do not call your beliefs plain stupid, I open my mind to your points and agree with many of them, my beliefs extend past the card/experiences associations onto a more esoteric level which is validated by my experiences...

try it

 

[Le Fanu]

Think about it: If you remove all the esoteric mumbo-jumbo from tarot reading, what remains?

I ask myself this question very often and find that more and more the practical side of me is taking over, and that doesn't mean that I am dismissive of the mystery of tarot. Far from it.

First of all I don't believe that any one deck works particularly well (or rather, better than another), which is why it grates when I read posts such as "ooh, this deck tells it like it is. It doesn't pull any punches. This deck really works...It has such a wicked sense of humour etc" They just seem to me pointless things to say as no deck is like that. We are simply all different. And there are good readers of images or bad readers; and anyone can become a good reader, you just have to look closely at things I think. We simply interpret differently or respond to images dfferently. And that's great. Life is rich because we all bring something different to images from our world view.

To be honest, I tend to think that every single card in every single combination is true of our lives at any given time. We tend to pounce on what is uppermost. All of the Majors, upright and reversed are true of me now. Same with the Minors. I just have to decipher which aspect is perhaps more relevant to me or the querent.

I always think it is worth remembering (and something I tell myself frequently), that the Rider Waite Smith tarot system is one system and it is actually quite modern. It dates from the time of my great grandmother. Not old at all. The Thoth is even newer, (dates from when my parents were born). So all talk of tradition is a bit silly.

I believe that before the 18th century (again, I think of this as the beginning of the modern period, so not ancient by any means) I think that cartomancy was done with playing cards. So no High Priestess, no Hierophant. That's not to take away the mystery. Is this O.T? I hope not. I supose I just want to say that tarot works in the way you want it to work, in accordance with your beliefs. Esoteric or not esoteric.

I personally find that I am always in agreement with one of our members here Greg who says that the more symbolism, the more esoterica there is, the muddier the readings. I find that I'm actually inclined to agree. True for me but maybe not for you.

The secret, as with everything, is just look. And look closely.

Sorry, did I ramble? Gotta go, the postman just delivered my Dodal!!

 

[Debra]

Hi, Novbert, welcome to the forum. My ancestors are from Hungary.

The question is if these are just a random set of images. In other words, we shuffle, and then the cards come up randomly, and the "order" we see is completely imposed by our creative imagination.

Although this makes perfect sense and seems like it ought to be true, I don't think it is.

In other words, I don't believe that the selection of cards is random.

 

[Novbert]

So rather than just think that it's plain stupid (your opinion not based on fact or experience) I hope you take up a reading offer and do a little experimenting yourself, you may find the results stretch your perceptions and understandings - not least when actually you do accurate on line readings yourself...

Well, I got maybe a bit over the top with that "plain stupid" thing, but my point is that there is a lot more psychology in there than some practicioners think. I've read a lot about cold reading a while ago and the summary of what I learned is that many, many aspects of fortunetelling can be faken - and it's really hard to distinguish fakers from people with real insight into tarot (or any other method).
This is one of my favourite videos on the subject: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btP_vy5cQq4
The guy is admittedly faker but how good he's doing this!

 

[Novbert]

To be honest, I tend to think that every single card in every single combination is true of our lives at any given time. We tend to pounce on what is uppermost. All of the Majors, upright and reversed are true of me now. Same with the Minors. I just have to decipher which aspect is perhaps more relevant to me or the querent.

Spot on, Le Fanu! I just see that many folks here don't see it that way - yet as I see it's perfectly true.

 

[moderndayruth]

Hi Novbert, welcome to AT!

To be honest I'm pretty new to tarot and these forums, yet I'm just surprised that many folks here actually use tarot cards for "telling the future", or to "get answers". Some even say that "the cards were wrong" and "they didn't predict the future correctly so they don't work".

Dare i say that i doubt you read those words at AT?

Think about it: If you remove all the esoteric mumbo-jumbo from tarot reading, what remains?

What exactly is "mumbo-jumbo" to you?

As I see, this is the case: The reader sees a random set of images in a predefined pattern and she tries to find a meaning for this random stimulus based on her assumpions, knowledge and impressions of those images and their position in the big picture. Unconsciously - or semi consciously - she projects her own biases, thoughts, fears and hopes into those images - basically that's what makes them relevant for her situation and understandable for her.

What you describe is NOT reading Tarot. Could be cold reading, could be people reading, but it is not Tarot reading.

This phenomenon is known by psychologists for decades - it is used in projective tests like in Rorschach test and such.

And for how long is it that you read Tarot?

What you get in a spread is pretty much random - even if you're convinced that it's not.

So i should let go my convictions, that have worked perfectly for me and my sitters for over a decade and substitute them with yours... because you say so, right?

The reader - or patient if we speak about psychology - is better not aware of the fact that she participates in a projective test, the fact that her description of the pictures will actually be used to determine her psychological state. Was she aware of that, she would certaily try to "cheat", lie about it - as we often lie, even to ourselves how we really feel about a specific situation. Of course when it comes to tarot, cheating may make no sense as the reader reads to discover the truth - and cheating would mean cheating herself, but it's definitely a risk.

Based on this, i shall presume that you are not at all familiar with what Tarot reading is, as a process.

Considering all these things I can't bend my mind around why people think that reading can be done online AT ALL.

Because it works.
Go to your readings subforum or to any of the exchanges subforum and you'll see for yourself.

On the other hand, considering all the aforementioned things, I still don't think tarot would be useless or not worthy to learn. It can be used for good and it can be even helpful and a fulfilling experience for both the reader and the querent. It's a great psychological tool, but thinking it's more that that is plain stupid - at least as much as thinking that it doesn't have anything to do with psychology.

I find it plain stupid to join a Tarot enthusiast community and straightaway claim the community's practice - plain stupid, but to each their own.
I hope you'll stick with us, you might change your opinions.

 

[NikkiB]

Well, I got maybe a bit over the top with that "plain stupid" thing, but my point is that there is a lot more psychology in there than some practicioners think. I've read a lot about cold reading a while ago and the summary of what I learned is that many, many aspects of fortunetelling can be faken - and it's really hard to distinguish fakers from people with real insight into tarot (or any other method).
This is one of my favourite videos on the subject: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btP_vy5cQq4
The guy is admittedly faker but how good he's doing this!

Well its very hard to fake on line you cant read body language , fish for clues, you get a question and your set of cards...

I agree many fake it, totally agree but that doesn't make divination etc impossible - you get good doctor, bad doctors etc good tarot readers and bad ones, that's life...

I also agree about the psychology, I will use psychology sometimes in face to face readings, but not to fake it but to calm someone whose nervous to communicate with them in a way that they best understand the message the cards have for them... some people need to look at the pictures, others need to analyse and understand, others need to work through the cards with very little input from the reader - just gentle guidance.

I look at the sun on the world spirit card and it brings different messages to me to the sun in the victorian romantic deck - I would read these cards differently perhaps because of that and the feelings associations that spark in me because of the picture, however in both cards there will be something i promise that will draw me to the message for that person in that reading...

so there is a place for psychology in tarot, in many ways - even as base as helping me communicate the message in a way it gets through - but using psychology to fake a reading is an entirely different discussion to the one I thought we were having, that is no question not only possible but highly unethical.

Anyway, if you would like to do an online reading for me to see how you can do readings on line for yourself I am totally willing Proof the pudding is in the eating, we can all put our points across but your experience is what will be the important factor...

Fun discussion thank you

 

[Alta]

Moderator note:

Hi all,

While it is possible that Novbert went a bit far with the using the adjective 'stupid', and has since retracted this, we do try to allow a range of opinions on this, a discussion forum. Yes, we try to stop flaming but merely an expression of opinion seems fine to me.

We have to be a little careful about developing group-think and allow other views to be expressed and replied to thoughtfully.

Alta
co-Moderator, Talking Tarot

 

[Barleywine]

Well, I got maybe a bit over the top with that "plain stupid" thing, but my point is that there is a lot more psychology in there than some practicioners think.

Back in the early 1970s when I was first exposed to the tarot, there emerged a vigorous trend toward psychological interpretation in both the tarot and astrology. Perhaps it was a reaction to the complicated esoteric symbolism that had carried over from the previous wave of intense interest in these practices, or maybe just fresh parallels being drawn between the science of the mind and the first-hand observations of the seekers. The language of psychology became part of the fabric of the discourse, and I found that I had a foot in both camps. The esoteric approach yielded wonderful insights for meditation and other personal applications of the symbolism, but for dealing with querents in readings, the psychological perspective always seemed (to me, anyway) to produce much more relevant and meaningful insights. But the face-to-face interaction of the querent with the reader in order to explicate these insights was a crucial element in its success. I share your skepticism about what I see as "one-way" on-line reading, unless considered in the light of "clairvoyant," "psychic," "channeled," or other subtle and largely unsubstantiated methods of working; "if it works, it works" is a difficult argument to refute, but my answer to that has always been "Where's the beef?" Pointing to "reader's intuition" as the sole foundation for a remote reading strikes me as wholly subjective, potentially unbalanced and vulnerable to error in suggesting the "energies" at work in the querent's life. We have already had a long debate about this in another thread.

To be honest, I tend to think that every single card in every single combination is true of our lives at any given time. We tend to pounce on what is uppermost. All of the Majors, upright and reversed are true of me now. Same with the Minors. I just have to decipher which aspect is perhaps more relevant to me or the querent.

I personally find that I am always in agreement with one of our members here Greg who says that the more symbolism, the more esoterica there is, the muddier the readings. I find that I'm actually inclined to agree. True for me but maybe not for you.

I agree fully with the first point. If the tarot is truly a comprehensive symbolic map of the personal cosmos as well as the universal, than no part of it is ever irrelevant, we just need to tease the most relevant meaning from it in any given arrangement of its possible permutations. That is a life's work!

Regarding the second point, I don't encounter many querents to whom the esoteric symbolism would mean much, if anything, anyway, so I seldom venture into that territory in my readings. What may resonate for me in my private explorations just leaves more casual inquirers scratching their heads. It just isn't helpful, unless it can be translated into more practical terms that speak to the querent's life circumstances. Sometimes building allegorical "stories" around the universal archetypes can bring forth associations that the querent can relate to, but for me it's usually necessary only when I reach the point that the more apparent indications in the reading aren't connecting.